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Old 12-01-2019, 07:16 PM   #21
Unwitting Pawn
 
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Default Re: Darkness, visibility and to hit penalties

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Originally Posted by Dalin View Post
Yeah... this just happened to me this afternoon despite having actively participated in this thread all week. The darkness appeared around one of the PCs and I described it like he was blind. Luckily, I was the GM, so I just quietly added Blackout and Dark Vision to the enemy wizard's spell list.
Thanks. Quick thinking save, BTW.

Your story reminds me: I'm assuming that the Dark Vision advantage works as well as the Dark Vision spell, but I'd like to know if others agree with that assessment, or indeed whether it has been expressly stated somewhere?
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Old 12-01-2019, 07:22 PM   #22
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Default Re: Darkness, visibility and to hit penalties

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If it just renders everything in the area invisible, it's not darkness, it's invisibility.
That's basically how I run it. It's basically a super conspicuous area invisibility that's defeatable via Dark Vision.

And other non-visual spectrum based senses.



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Originally Posted by Dalin View Post
Luckily, I was the GM, so I just quietly added Blackout and Dark Vision to the enemy wizard's spell list.
Always the best choice.
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Old 12-01-2019, 07:50 PM   #23
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Default Re: Darkness, visibility and to hit penalties

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
That's basically how I run it. It's basically a super conspicuous area invisibility that's defeatable via Dark Vision.
So you can cast it covering a wall to see through the wall?
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:49 PM   #24
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Default Re: Darkness, visibility and to hit penalties

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So you can cast it covering a wall to see through the wall?
"Basically" doesn't mean "actually". So in this case no. It would just be a dark patch they couldn't see through.


Actually, I tend to have silhouettes of non-stealthable things now I think about it. For simplicity it ought to just be Blackout and drop Blackout off the spell lists.
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:31 AM   #25
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Default Re: Darkness, visibility and to hit penalties

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For simplicity it ought to just be Blackout and drop Blackout off the spell lists.
Agreed. The spell isn't what people expect it to be, and what it actually is is confusing.
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:23 AM   #26
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Default Re: Darkness, visibility and to hit penalties

Maybe Darkness should actually be higher on the spell tree, requiring Blackout and Dark Vision? It's good to shroud yourself or the scout in darkness to fling missiles from a hard to hit position.
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Old 12-02-2019, 08:22 AM   #27
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Default Re: Darkness, visibility and to hit penalties

The problem with magic, in general, is that it by definition breaks the laws of nature. When scrutinized, there will always be some aspect of a spell that contradicts science, and so the game rules (or the GM) must make a decision about how the spell works. Using the forum to try to reach an agreement is sensible, in my opinion, but for any solution that is presented, someone can object reasonably, pointing out a flaw in the solution, when applied to reality. So the best we can hope for is that everyone can draw inspiration from each other and find a model that resonates with them and their gaming groups.

Please don't let my pessimism be a party pooper to the discussion, but realize that this is a topic that we may never come to complete agreement on.
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Old 12-02-2019, 09:40 AM   #28
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Default Re: Darkness, visibility and to hit penalties

The best analogy I've seen for the Darkness spell is to imagine three people: one is in a well-lit room looking out a window; one is in the neighboring house, in an equally well-lit room, looking out their window; the third is in the dark yard between them, outside the light cast from both windows, on a cloudy, moonless night.

The person in the yard can clearly see both watchers in the windows: they're well-lit. Each of the watchers can clearly see each other, for that matter.

But the person in the yard can't see someone a couple of feet away (it's too dark), and the people standing at the windows can't see anyone in the yard.

That's how Darkness works.
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Old 12-02-2019, 10:32 AM   #29
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Default Re: Darkness, visibility and to hit penalties

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Originally Posted by coronatiger View Post
The problem with magic, in general, is that it by definition breaks the laws of nature.
The problem isn't that it breaks the laws of nature. The problem is that its effects are incomprehensible.
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But the person in the yard can't see someone a couple of feet away (it's too dark), and the people standing at the windows can't see anyone in the yard.
Unless the person in the yard stands between the two lit areas, being silhouetted...
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Old 12-02-2019, 06:26 PM   #30
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Default Re: Darkness, visibility and to hit penalties

[QUOTE=Unwitting Pawn;2298196]I'm assuming that the Dark Vision advantage works as well as the Dark Vision spell, but I'd like to know if others agree with that assessment, or indeed whether it has been expressly stated somewhere?[/QUOTE]

As far as I know, this hasn't been stated unequivocally in DFRPG. The Dark Vision advantage, however, only appears in Monsters (p. 10) where it is described "as if under a permanent Dark Vision spell." This suggests that monsters with the trait can ignore magically created darkness.

In GURPS (shhh!), this interpretation is explicitly stated in the text of both the Dark Vision advantage (B47) and in the Darkness and Blackout spell descriptions (Magic, pp. 111-112).
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