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Old 10-14-2021, 04:44 AM   #1
Ordo_Lyrae
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Default Two Questions about spells: Daze and Stench

1. Reading the description of Daze it states that the subject acts normally but doesn't notice what's going on around them. How does this work in combat? Does it cause mental/Physical Stun (neither written nor implied the rules as far as I can tell)? If the Wizard casts Daze on the Goblin and the Thief moves from the side hex to the rear hex with Step and Attack does the Thief get Backstabbing bonuses?

2. Stench says that any subject in the area may hold their breath but it doesn't seem to say what happens if they don't hold breath? Intuitively I would think it causes Nausea but again I don't see anything in the spell description to imply that.
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Old 10-14-2021, 08:53 AM   #2
Dalin
 
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Default Re: Two Questions about spells: Daze and Stench

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ordo_Lyrae View Post
1. Reading the description of Daze it states that the subject acts normally but doesn't notice what's going on around them. How does this work in combat? Does it cause mental/Physical Stun (neither written nor implied the rules as far as I can tell)? If the Wizard casts Daze on the Goblin and the Thief moves from the side hex to the rear hex with Step and Attack does the Thief get Backstabbing bonuses?
I would rule that a dazed combatant stops fighting and can't take any active defenses, so the thief would get full backstabbing bonuses. The first injury, of course, would break the daze, but that might not help the victim much...

Quote:
2. Stench says that any subject in the area may hold their breath but it doesn't seem to say what happens if they don't hold breath? Intuitively I would think it causes Nausea but again I don't see anything in the spell description to imply that.
I agree that this one seems confusing. I think the idea is that you roll vs. HT once per minute to avoid 1d HP of injury. If you hold your breath, you can postpone this for a bit. Otherwise, I would have you roll immediately. It does seem a bit underwhelming though since most creatures have HT of better than 10.
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Old 10-14-2021, 01:59 PM   #3
tbone
 
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Default Re: Two Questions about spells: Daze and Stench

Stench: "...but once their breath runs out, they start to suffocate...". I think that's the key. Maybe; it's not clear.

The wording suggests to me that the spell is essentially a sort of Destroy Air, for breathing purposes. Or a transformation: "Air to Weak Mustard Gas." It makes the air unbreathable; you suffocate.

The text says you may hold your breath, but I think doing so is almost a given; breath-holding provides some X seconds of immunity vs Stench, at no particular cost. But sooner or later, you have to breathe the now-worthless (and slightly injurious) air, and so begin suffocating.

I don't know whether that's right. Even if it is, it's pretty weak in combat; almost all combatants should be able to hold their breath long enough to fight a GURPS combat, or to move out of the stinky area. Anyone mobile should be able to get away before the first damage check. I suspect it's not really intended as a combat spell; more of a "make everyone gag and run out of the tavern" sort of spell. (If it were rewritten, I think it'd be appropriate to bring in HT rolls to avoid retching/coughing as the main effect, not just the 1d/min damage.)
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Old 10-14-2021, 03:01 PM   #4
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Default Re: Two Questions about spells: Daze and Stench

For spells like Stench, I started letting their inhalation effect take place for entities that are in the area of effect at the moment of appearance. This gives the spell a little more bite and makes it worthwhile to cast as a damage dealer rather than just area semi-denial. Breath holding can take place immediately after, and of course if entering the area after its appearance.

This cuts both ways too, PCs have relied on that interpretation to do some pretty solid damage to enemy formations.
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Old 10-14-2021, 03:19 PM   #5
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Two Questions about spells: Daze and Stench

I assume that Daze applies the Daze incapacitating condition (Exploits p66).

Stench appears to make air both unbreathable and mildly toxic. It's not worded in quite the same way as GURPS Magic (where it's breathable but you take 1d/minute) or 3e (where it's breathable but you take 1d every time you breathe). Its main use is area denial, though it has a low enough base cost that you can cast it on small armies, a 100 hex radius stench is plenty lethal.
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Last edited by Anthony; 10-14-2021 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 10-15-2021, 05:08 AM   #6
Ordo_Lyrae
 
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Default Re: Two Questions about spells: Daze and Stench

I appreciate the replies and after a closer reading of the Suffocation rules Stench seems a bit more clear.

My understanding at this point is:

1) Stench: a subject in the area is forced to hold their breath (HT seconds during combat, so 10-15 turns most of the time?) at the point at which the subjects start to suffocate they lose 1 FP per second, in addition Stench causes them to roll vs. HT or take 1d injury per minute. I would interpret that as having to make the first roll for damage immediately after running out of breath as most things that breath are going unconscious due to suffocation pretty shortly (probably long before 60 seconds is reached and another 1d injury is done).

2) Daze: I missed the incapacitating condition Dazed in Exploits p. 66 (the spell description itself does not mention it). The Dazed condition specifies that someone who is Dazed cannot defend so Backstabbing would work (at least for one attack as it would then break the Daze).
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Old 10-15-2021, 11:13 AM   #7
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Two Questions about spells: Daze and Stench

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Originally Posted by Ordo_Lyrae View Post
2) Daze: I missed the incapacitating condition Dazed in Exploits p. 66 (the spell description itself does not mention it).
The spell actually predates the condition (it hasn't meaningfully changed since 3e, the condition was introduced in 4e) but I can't think of a reason to have given them the same name if they weren't intended to be the same, particularly since I'm not aware of anything that actually applies the dazed condition other than custom afflictions.
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Old 10-15-2021, 12:10 PM   #8
Rolando
 
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Default Re: Two Questions about spells: Daze and Stench

I remember that in 3ed Daze was a spell that made the subject simply ignore things that are not ordinary or any change in the current situation.

A dazed guards will ignore people walking in front of them, a dazed shepherd will ignore goblins stealing the sheep, etc.

I somehow doubt it got formalized as a "condition" for a PDF released for 4ed.
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Old 10-15-2021, 12:26 PM   #9
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Two Questions about spells: Daze and Stench

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Originally Posted by Rolando View Post
I somehow doubt it got formalized as a "condition" for a PDF released for 4ed.
It didn't, it got formalized as a condition in Basic (description on p428, also referenced in Affliction). I gave the DFRPG reference because that's the forum we're in.
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Old 10-19-2021, 11:34 AM   #10
RyanW
 
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Default Re: Two Questions about spells: Daze and Stench

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Originally Posted by Rolando View Post
I remember that in 3ed Daze was a spell that made the subject simply ignore things that are not ordinary or any change in the current situation.

A dazed guards will ignore people walking in front of them, a dazed shepherd will ignore goblins stealing the sheep, etc.
I've heard it compared to highway hypnosis. You continue operating in a vacant, almost autonomous manner ("stay between lines" in the case of driving, maybe "stand at post"" or "walk the along fence" for a guard), and remain pretty oblivious to stimulus that isn't intense enough to snap you out.
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