[DF] [Boss Monster] The Hydra

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Athanbeli

I thought that in MA it was ruled that biting gets full hit location penalties, even if it can be considered a grapple (once it hits).

That's correct. The initial grapple based on a close-combat bite certainly have full hit location penalties:

Originally Posted by Martial Arts, p. 115

A toothy mouth lets you bite in close combat. Roll against DX or Brawling to hit. You can either nip and let go or hold on and grapple your victim in addition to injuring him. Either is an attack that takes full hit location penalties – not halved for grappling – and inflicts thrust-1 crushing damage.

HOWEVER, to Bruno's point, treating this as an arm with teeth or claws, due to the flexible necks, wouldn't be out of line (and note that it's irrelevant if attacking the torso in any case, since the location penalties are zero, and half of nuthin', carry the nuthin', still nothing later, it's an unpenalized attack).

In either case, once you have him in your hand/mouth, treating additional bites/grapples as per Adding/Removing a Hand would not be entirely out of line either.

Technical Grappling won't change this much in the main; the GM should make a call as to whether the attack looks more like a strike or not, and adjudicate accordingly. I'd probably make the initial grab/bite similar to a strike unless the heads are assumed to be as dexterous as a real arm in terms of natural coordination (and for a critter that uses these instinctively to attack and get food, no reason not to!) AND the bite-and-hold (like a snake) is the favored attack mode, as opposed to bite-to-injure.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Technical Grappling won't change this much in the main; the GM should make a call as to whether the attack looks more like a strike or not, and adjudicate accordingly. I'd probably make the initial grab/bite similar to a strike unless the heads are assumed to be as dexterous as a real arm in terms of natural coordination (and for a critter that uses these instinctively to attack and get food, no reason not to!) AND the bite-and-hold (like a snake) is the favored attack mode, as opposed to bite-to-injure.

That raises an interesting follow-up question: would you treat a snake's bite as a grapple instead of a strike? After all, it also possesses an extremely flexible and coordinated "neck", and bites to establish a hold rather than to tear out a chunk or flesh.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

That raises an interesting follow-up question: would you treat a snake's bite as a grapple instead of a strike? After all, it also possesses an extremely flexible and coordinated "neck", and bites to establish a hold rather than to tear out a chunk or flesh.

I'll have to make my self-control roll to not post the relevant section here.

But yes, constrictor snakes bite to grapple, then follow-up with their coils as Constriction Attacks.

My impression in terms of 'strike vs. grapple' for constrictor snakes (and we linked in several videos of this actually happening during the playtest) is that constrictors mostly target the torso of their typical prey animals, but will settle for "whatever they can reach" for larger game.

We had DETAILED discussion of animal attack modes. I can't promise we got 'em all (certainly we didn't) nor even that my rules will always be precisely clear-cut and require no judgment calls . . . but how animals grapple was a significant concern of the playtesters and the final manuscript. There are a few people you can thank for that . . . and not necessarily ME. A few were VERY concerned with non-human grappling, and the text reflects this.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

It appeared, and the skill 31, feint+4, Striking ST 19 catgirl swashbuckler feints with the first attack, power blow/edged rapier swing (enchanted to be unbreakable, to have AD (2), and with a custom enchantment that ups the max ST), and then does 5 rapid strikes. Each attack does an absurd amount of damage, due to Weapon Master adding +2 per dice. Then the Scout/Mystic Knight starts raining arrows (with the hydra being so big, it's easy), and tosses 27 arrows at it (three arrow bow+multishot+dual weapon attack+ extra attack). Each arrow does insane damage due to being fired with effective ST 19, and weapon master. Then the skill 25 wizard great hastes the swashbuckler, and the dark one evil cleric makes his hidden lore roll to discover that it won't die as long as it has heads. Next turn, the swashbuckler chops all the heads, due to being able to do two turns of attacks back to back.

Do you allow catgirl to apply the same Power Blow roll to all of the Rapid Strikes of the same attack, or is she making Power Blow-10 (and spending 1 FP) for each of those 5 strikes?
Also, do you allow her to Rapid Strike multiple opponents in one turn? I usually don't allow this so that PCs will eventually be motivated to buy Extra Attacks...

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Gnome

Do you allow catgirl to apply the same Power Blow roll to all of the Rapid Strikes of the same attack, or is she making Power Blow-10 (and spending 1 FP) for each of those 5 strikes?
Also, do you allow her to Rapid Strike multiple opponents in one turn? I usually don't allow this so that PCs will eventually be motivated to buy Extra Attacks...

On FP per attack, one power blow -10 per attack. I allow her to use them against multiple targets, as long as they are all in range (rapid strike is not compatible with move and attack). She has Extra Attack 2 (the most she is allowed to get).

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

On FP per attack, one power blow -10 per attack.

That's what I figured. So slicing up that hydra was not without its costs, at least in temporary resources...

I allow her to use them against multiple targets, as long as they are all in range (rapid strike is not compatible with move and attack). She has Extra Attack 2 (the most she is allowed to get).

Why bother buying Extra Attacks then? For the price of EA 2 she could have bought up skill by 12 more points, allowing for just as many Rapid Strikes (and some added versatility, and 2 points to spare).

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Gnome

That's what I figured. So slicing up that hydra was not without its costs, at least in temporary resources...

She spent 8 points from the endurance item (like Power items, but for physical effort), and nearly all her FP. It was not without costs, but it worked.

Why bother buying Extra Attacks then? For the price of EA 2 she could have bought up skill by 12 more points, allowing for just as many Rapid Strikes (and some added versatility, and 2 points to spare).

First, having at least one extra attack allows her to feint at full skill+rapid strike. Second, she mostly does Move and Attack, with the powerup that removes the cap and penalty to the skill. Third, skills are capped to Attribute+10 in my game, unless they are Wildcard skills...

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

It appeared, and the skill 31, feint+4, Striking ST 19 catgirl swashbuckler feints with the first attack, power blow/edged rapier swing (enchanted to be unbreakable, to have AD (2), and with a custom enchantment that ups the max ST), and then does 5 rapid strikes. Each attack does an absurd amount of damage, due to Weapon Master adding +2 per dice. Then the Scout/Mystic Knight starts raining arrows (with the hydra being so big, it's easy), and tosses 27 arrows at it (three arrow bow+multishot+dual weapon attack+ extra attack). Each arrow does insane damage due to being fired with effective ST 19, and weapon master. Then the skill 25 wizard great hastes the swashbuckler, and the dark one evil cleric makes his hidden lore roll to discover that it won't die as long as it has heads. Next turn, the swashbuckler chops all the heads, due to being able to do two turns of attacks back to back.

The arrow thing seems a bit off. Extra attack does not canonically do much for a bow wielder.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

She spent 8 points from the endurance item (like Power items, but for physical effort), and nearly all her FP. It was not without costs, but it worked.

Love this idea. Are endurance items in the books somewhere, or is this a house rule?

First, having at least one extra attack allows her to feint at full skill+rapid strike. Second, she mostly does Move and Attack, with the powerup that removes the cap and penalty to the skill. Third, skills are capped to Attribute+10 in my game, unless they are Wildcard skills...

Skill cap is a nice way to do it.
I always forget that you can't move-and-attack into a Rapid Strike. I should start enforcing that. Of course, whenever I discover (or remember) a rule I wonder when would be a good time to start implementing it without someone feeling as though they've been cheated...

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Gnome

Love this idea. Are endurance items in the books somewhere, or is this a house rule?

It would not be in the books. The canonical way to do this would be a gadget based on extreme regeneration.