Altering the Initiative Order

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Double standards again. Situational awareness for me, but not for thee?

Who says? I generally try for fog of war and suspense whenever I can, I think.

Moreover, I never claimed that they were broken.

Well, then I guess I'm arguing against a more extreme position than you actually have, so never mind.

[Bruno]

Regarding the concern over Wait allowing you to chain two Attacks together to maximize repeat-parry-penalties:

I'd probably handle that sort of thing, if abused by one side of the fight or the other, like Dirty Tricks and Combinations - if you keep doing it, your enemies are going to start getting a +1 to defences (no more) because you're being predictable. Switch up to another tactic, or alternate tactics, and they'll loose the bonus/never get it in the first place.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Okay, that makes sense. At any rate I don't see what the problem is. Tactical patience and good planning ought to give you tighter decision loops. It's not like the Waiting character isn't taking a risk, he's specifically gambling that events will happen as he predicts; if they don't, he's wasted a turn.

If neither guy attacks he's wasted as much of a turn as the other guy, that's a wash and completely irrelevant to the discussion of initiative and reaction speed.
I'm in no way saying that the RAW isn't highly playable.

Besides, take the example that Fast Zed has Basic Speed 8 and Slow Able has Basic Speed 4, we then have Able getting to do two turns worth of actions in between Zed's normal actions.

And since he can ready after a Wait, that means Able could be picking up a weapon off the floor then using it, readying a machine then using it, etc., all mega-quickly at twice the speed of what Zed can do, even though Able has half the Basic Speed of Zed.

[roguebfl]

Except unless Abe's wait is so succeed that Zed doe get to act again, (hence making Abe second action irreverent) Zed gets to Finish their interupted acton before Abe next action

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Except unless Abe's wait is so succeed that Zed doe get to act again, (hence making Abe second action irreverent) Zed gets to Finish their interupted acton before Abe next action

No, read what we're talking about, namely the part where Able Waits until after Zed's attack, which is as valid a condition as any.

The point is Able can Wait and attack Zed as he comes into range, he can Wait and interrupt Zed in the middle of his Concentrate or other action, and finally Able can Wait and attack after Zed's attack, then Able gets to have another full action before Zed gets to go again.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

No, read what we're talking about, namely the part where Able Waits until after Zed's attack, which is as valid a condition as any.

The point is Able can Wait and attack Zed as he comes into range, he can Wait and interrupt Zed in the middle of his Concentrate or other action, and finally Able can Wait and attack after Zed's attack, then Able gets to have another full action before Zed gets to go again.

And Again, it interrupts yes, but does not STOP Zed's action, unless it make the action impossible (though is the case of concentration can force a check to finish) BEFORE Abe can try again

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

And Again, it interrupts yes, but does not STOP Zed's action, unless it make the action impossible (though is the case of concentration can force a check to finish) BEFORE Abe can try again

Reread what we're talking about, it doesn't sound like you're catching the point.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Able (turn 1): I wait for Zed to come within range, then I will attack him first!
Zed (turn 1): I move a step and Attack Able.
Able (turn 1): That triggers my Wait, so I get to attack! I hit!
Zed (turn 1): Okay, I Parry and Riposte for -4. I Succeed.
Zed (turn 1): I get to roll my attack now, but you must defend at -4! Ha!
Able (turn 1): On noes! I failed to defend. I take damage!
Able (turn 2): I get to Attack again but I have shock penalties. If you Parry though it is at a penalty because it will be your second Parry.

Why would Zed get to attack twice during the same turn? Riposte effects "your first attack next turn [that] uses your parrying weapon against the foe you parried."

It should be:
Able (turn 1): Wait
Zed (turn 1): Attack
Able (still turn 1): Wait triggered, attacks, Zed parries to set up riposte
Able (turn 2): Attack (Zed suffers penalty for multiple parries)
Zed (turn 2): Attack (Able suffers penalty for riposte)

Edit: Ignore this post. I misread what the quoted text was saying.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by RyanW

Why would Zed get to attack twice during the same turn? Riposte effects "your first attack next turn [that] uses your parrying weapon against the foe you parried."

I think you are being too literal there. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I really don't see why you shouldn't be able to use it on your next attack, regardless.

It should be:
Able (turn 1): Wait
Zed (turn 1): Attack
Able (still turn 1): Wait triggered, attacks, Zed parries to set up riposte
Able (turn 2): Attack (Zed suffers penalty for multiple parries)
Zed (turn 2): Attack (Able suffers penalty for riposte)

What ever happened to Zed's attack on turn 1? Waits don't cancel the maneuver they interrupt.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by RyanW

Why would Zed get to attack twice during the same turn?

Oh, it doesn't . . . but the "instant" effects in GURPS means that if A Waits, and says "I take my turn after Z attacks," then A defers his actions on Turn 4 until after Z attacks, but when the sequence comes around again (Z takes his actions in Turn 4, A takes his actions, deferred until after Z, on Turn 4) and it's now Turn 5, that A gets to perform his stuff with no chance for Z to go in between, though he may still defend unless his Turn 4 action says "nuh uh!"

It's a risk for A to do this. Z could critical, leaving A no defense and possibly in a bad way. The situation could change, leaving not able to do whatever it was he intended. But . . . with the right moves, it could be a high reward strategy. With Rapid Strike and AoA, you could do six penalized attacks (and no defenses, though) if you didn't defend on Turn 4, and burn AoA (Double) for a RS+Attack.

I agree with the poster who mentioned using the Dirty Tricks and favorite combinations, though: that sort of thing would be pretty predictable. I don't think it'd be too metagame for a fighter who'd seen A do this before (holy crap, he's FAST!) to react to A deferring his actions until after him to have Z simply not get near A unless he has no choice.

However, for a skilled and/or well protected fighter A, where he has high chances of parry (and thus can RS + AoA (Double: RS+Attack)) or just has wicked high DR (so he can AoA (RS+Attack) on Turn 4 and then again on Turn 5) it's definitely going to be a mook-slayer.

Note that other than early in the combat, A giving himself two actions choices in a row on the Turn 4-5 sequence means he's given Z two in a row on Turn 3-4 . . . though A has the advantage because it was intended.