Carrying Capacity versus Encumbrance

[cupbearer]

Hi,

I really love the detail of Gurps and for reasons that i probably don't have to convince you of, find its my go to game when i want to play serious simulation rpg type games, however, one thing that seems to be missing from this game (or at least, i can't seem to find) is reference to CARRYING CAPACITY for characers (CC).

See, i don't really think that the weight of items is really the most prominent limit or guage of what a person can carry, after all, you can lift the weight of fifty pillows, but certainly couldn't lift fifty actual pillows because the combined CC of the items would be too unweildy to carry.

I'm realy suprised this hasn't been tackled before (or has it?), becuase i really feel that its more important than the weight factor, since again, you can't cary six assault rifles around (where would you put them?)

I can find very few references to this.... among them a very general statement of the volume a backpack can carry in the basic set, and a reference to the volume you can place in pottery in low tech. This is great and all, but without the attending volumes of individual items in the equipment section it deosn't do any good. I certinaly don't want to measure everything out as we play and wouldn't really know how to do this anyway.

so, are there GURPS supplements that deal with this in any edition? (preferably 4th, then 3rd etc), or house rules that are reasonable and don't require spread sheets or scientific calculators out there?

AD&D 2nd ed. and torchbearer are the only games i have ever seen that actually look at this. Torchbearer is extremely limiting and adnd is wonky too, so i don't know if its a good idea to adapt those sub-systems. I am curently playing a 2nd ed, game with modified CC values (the BULK rules from the players option book - skills and powers)... in that game we don't even use encumbrance at all. Realistically, you're going to run out of space most of the time before you get too heavy anyways. Since encumbrance is such a hassle, we stopped tracking weight replacing it with a "use common sense and the dm may audit your sheet here and there", combining that with an abstract CC system that is used hard and fast.

Still though, rather than developing one on my own, i'd love to see if the official designers or savvy Gurps fan base have had a shot at it.

Let me know!

[Mr Frost]

The nearest thing that leaps to mind is the Bulk stat in weapons stats .
That might give you a "ball park" reference starting point .

[Bruno]

Part of the problem, and related to why RPGs in general don't deal with it, is that it's an inherently squishy subject.

1) If I weren't out of shape and feeble, I certainly could hang 6 assault rifles off my shoulders by the regular old shoulder straps. I'd look something like a (homicidal) over-burdened vacationer, I'd be VERY hard pressed to Ready any of them, and I'd probably make a ridiculous racket, but I could do it.
I regularly carry a huge purse, a laptop bag, and a satchel, and I've added a backpack and a couple of grocery bags before. I didn't go very far or very fast, but my point is more about "using tools like straps, bags, hooks, buckles, and so forth" makes a huge difference that's hard to quantify.

2) Many objects are flat out squishy. Stick a feather pillow in an airtight bag and vacuum out all the air and it really packs down (doesn't get much lighter though - they're soft, but not beachballs). Packing pillows into a basket or box with nice handles makes them a LOT easier to deal with. Rolling them up neatly makes them easier to deal with. Tieing them down makes them easier to deal with.

Many objects get easier or harder to handle depending on the way you handle them. That's getting into being a pain in the ass to try to quantify.

3) Speaking of quantifying - it's relatively easy to get weights for a lot of real world objects. Volumes, not so much.

[cupbearer]

Hi,

Bruno, I see what you are saying, i agree it is squishy.

Where i disagree is the idea you can carry six assualt rifles. When i stated this example, i was picturing a person wearing the usual other stuff, rucksack, combat webbing, a side arm etc.... The reality is that there isn't surface room on your body to do this. Tying something down means you can't access it later, and even with tying it down the length of the object and the mass of it becomes an impediment to moving.

I don't want this to devolve into an argument about how many rifles someone can carry, or swords or whatever, but the reality is, go and try and you will discover that basic tasks are impossible when you have too many objects on your body. A player who hates bulk argued this incessantly until we tried the pillow example. You can push as much air as you want out of it, but you just can't carry that much stuff comfortably. He looked like a baffoon, but further had trouble doing simple tasks like bending over.

I agree its a hard one to quantify, but i am really suspicious of encumbrance, not only is it really onerous and annoying to track, it just seems pretty pointless. Take a medieval warrior for example. a broad sword just isn't that heavy, but it is bulky and awkward to have two or three of them thats for sure! My pillow wearing friend, was mad because he was a goliath, and therefore could easily carry a mace, long sword, two pistols, six daggers, a quiver of arrows, two handed sword, wear full plate armor and a back pack full of who knows what else in junk.
His reply to my cocked eyebrow: "I am under my encumbrance".

So he was. I don't believe it though. Not for a second. Who can carry all that? I mean, yeah, you can carry it, but what are you able to do while carrying it? And i don't mean fighting, i mean getting on a horse, going through a doorway, going to the bathroom, its crazy man, just crazy.

[gilbertocarlos]

Well, the first problem is ST20 people with SM+0, if you want realism, you should probably forbit it. Although there is a lot of arguments, ST15-18 seems to be the human maximum.

Second, weapons have max ST, ST5 weapons have max damage equal to ST15, so, he can carry them, but he won't do max damage.

Third, look at B287 - Carrying weapons and gear, there are limits on how many weapons you can carry, and in MA you have penalties to draw from odd places.

Forth, there are RPG systems who only care about bulk only, however, they are also a problem, since you can fight with a couple pillows tied to your back just fine.

[BattlemageBob]

I don't really see a problem unless the player believes they have immediate access to everything they're carrying. Whenever any of my GMs hear something like "I pull out my other assault rifle, then fire", they usually just laugh and tell them it will be ready a few seconds after combat is over.

Unless a person is wearing special clothing to allow for quick access for each item a player is carrying, the item is tied up in a backpack to minimize volume and balance the weight. No items in a backpack will be available during combat.

Remember, rules are just a guideline. The GM has final say in anything that happens. If something doesn't make sense just tell the player no.

[Dustin]

I typically assume that carried/worn items are done so fairly optimally, making best use of available straps/slings/pockets/etc. Anything exceptionally voluminous for its size, like a sack of feathers, will probably use up some hands/arms doing it, and anything else is below the level of resolution we play at.

[cupbearer]

gilbert: I will look at those referenced pages. thanks.
Battlemagebob:
yes, of course, but you are in essence saying that for this one thing in gurps you want a freeform solution. I'm saying, is there a way to codify this? has anyone done it? For instance, the bag thing, thats already done, you have to roll 1d6 or soemthing to determine the time it takes to grab something, but for weapons stuck on every crevice of your body there doesn't seem to be much there. I didn't see the weapons limits that gilbert mentions and that is a gross oversight on my part as its in the basic set, so i will take a second look, but, yeah i'd love to see a hard and fast rule, like item slots, with backpacks using up slots but adding more. Also, this means that if you lose your back pack in the mud slide you can't say "oh but my such and such was tucked in my belt pouch not in my bag" etc.... People may look at this as another level of needless complication, but in my other game i find its actually easier. We also have slots for other locations (whcih are unlimited) so you can easily manage your items that are stowed at home...

[cupbearer]

also, do you guys play with encumbrance?

And i know you are going to say yes, but admit it, how many of you have dropped encumbrance or sort of pretended you were using it after a few sessions where all the little bric a brac starts collecting?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

also, do you guys play with encumbrance?

And i know you are going to say yes, but admit it, how many of you have dropped encumbrance or sort of pretended you were using it after a few sessions where all the little bric a brac starts collecting?

Well, if you use GCA or some other computer aid, the encumbrance level is often calculated for you. Plus, as my characters have accumulated loot, by and large we've also accumulated pack animals. Or castles. :-)