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Old 10-20-2018, 06:10 AM   #31
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Silver Weapons, Weird Things That Aren't Enchantments, Armor Piercing

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Originally Posted by platimus View Post
"+1 damage against foes wearing chainmail"
So your friends are somehow weirdly immune to this bonus if you accidently hit them, perhaps in a training accident, or in that one fight where you have a falling out (possibly right before you cease being friends)? I assume "foe" status is defined by the emotional state of the weapon-wielder at the time of the attack, rather than (say) the emotional state of the target. So assassins are immune to the bonus damage at least until after the fight starts.

Sounds like a good rule for one of those belief-defines-reality settings along the lines of Mage: the Ascension.

:)
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Old 10-20-2018, 09:24 AM   #32
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Silver Weapons, Weird Things That Aren't Enchantments, Armor Piercing

The flip side of this is that armor is much more effective than most games (including TFT) give it credit for. For example, a cut from a saber or short sword or shot from a light draw bow to someone in full chainmail armor has virtually no chance of hurting them at all. I think on balance the value of armor in TFT is better than in most games, but it is still a bit under valued. Anything that functionally reduces its value might make the game less abstract, but would actually make it less realistic when it comes to the 'value proposition' of various weapons and armor.

Anyway, the solutions we're talking about here are basically GURPS. I have always thought (and commented in some early threads here) that the TFT revision wouldn't go far astray by adopting or adapting GURPS rules for shields, armor and damage, so long as it didn't go over board into a full import of all the complexities of GURPS. It is fine that they didn't do that, but a temperate revision in that direction would also be good, and would accomplish what you're talking about.
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Old 10-20-2018, 09:30 PM   #33
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
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Location: Lakeville, MN
Default Re: Silver Weapons, Weird Things That Aren't Enchantments, Armor Piercing

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
For example, a cut from a saber or short sword or shot from a light draw bow to someone in full chainmail armor has virtually no chance of hurting them at all.
We do a demonstration of how shields trap swords with a live sharp. I'm almost always in mail, because I am, and I hold the shield. My partner has a sharp viking sword. After the trapping demo, as the lead instructor is doing his talky thing, the swordsman will without warning give me a full-power backhanded cut across the chest. I have zero fear of being injured other than a mild bruise if he really hits me hard. And my mail is "Get Dressed for Battle 9mm dome-riveted hauburgeon," which is to say: nothing special about this stuff. It's better than butted, but the metal and rivets are poor quality.
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Old 10-21-2018, 09:03 AM   #34
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Silver Weapons, Weird Things That Aren't Enchantments, Armor Piercing

Good post! It would be interesting some time to see a quasi-medieval roleplaying game that gets armor close to right. You can get pretty close to there with GURPS or 3E Runequest if you layer armor creatively.

You can actually get pretty close to the right level of protectiveness in TFT if you patch together various items and talents: A knight in chainmail and kite shield (eq. to 'tower shield'), with the shield mastery talent and two levels of toughness talent has 9 points of armor protection, meaning most 1 handed weapons will have trouble delivering more than a point or two of damage, barring a double or triple damage attack. In terms of what you would fear and what you wouldn't, this is pretty much spot on. Of course the way of getting there involves kit bashing various abstract factors - the chainmail itself is only modestly protective against swords and such. But that 9 points of protection is eminently reachable. A plausible knight can't be created de novo, but perhaps could be achieved in a few months of regular play (about 5000 XP):

ST 14 DX 14(11, 9) IQ 10
Talents: Sword, Pole Weapons, Shield, Horsemanship, Toughness (x2), Shield Expertise
Equipment: Chainmail, Tower Shield, Bastard Sword, Lance, War Horse, Dagger

(9 points of protection and -1 for for to-hit for attacks from the front)
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Old 10-21-2018, 10:37 AM   #35
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Silver Weapons, Weird Things That Aren't Enchantments, Armor Piercing

It's pretty easy to come a lot closer to historical with TFT or GURPS, just by increasing the protection value of armor and/or having blades have a harder time penetrating armor than crushing or impaling does.
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Old 10-21-2018, 02:10 PM   #36
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Silver Weapons, Weird Things That Aren't Enchantments, Armor Piercing

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Originally Posted by Charles G. View Post
Mostly correct, but if you recall I mentioned that "full bore rifles" are a different matter altogether, and that real-life snipers invariably use only that. .308's and similar or even more powerful rifles have a great deal of put down power. Thus, a sniper usually does score a one shot kill (or at least put down) due to shot placement and power of the round. Anything less, though, becomes increasingly problematic - recall my anecdote about the sharpshooter in Iraq using the less powerful 5.56 NATO...

And in all honesty, particularly with handguns, any realistic self defense drill does indeed expect that you will have to take multiple shots. The most pugnacious advice in this regard that I've read was, "Keep firing until the target changes shape or catches fire." Multiple shots to take down are the rule, not the exception.

That said, I do agree with you that 1.8% seems too small an odds. As a simple fix I would suggest that a roll of 4 or 5 results in double damage for bullets and arrows/quarrels (but not slung rocks/bullets), rather than just a 4 (and a 3 would still do triple damage). That way the odds come reasonably close to reality.

Again, a full rewrite of Melee is not really necessary. An optional rule that makes a few minimal changes can do fairly well. I do want to minimize changes, since the basic concept is OK. Its just that we have an important part of combat that because of the nature of Cidri is now a more significant problem then might otherwise be the case. Under *just* the basic Melee rules, the only real issue is with crossbows, and we could kinda squint past it. But when you add guns to the mix, it really stands out.
Yeah, I think we're on about the same page. I don't object to the draft house rule you posted before. But to point out where my quibbles & suggestions are:

* Adding 5 to the double-damage brings the odds up to 4.63%. I start getting concerned though that those automatic results are all independent of kill or situation, so I'd tend to want to move the chance of a deadly hit to another roll so that it can take into account skill and the situation. Otherwise skill and cover and movement and range and so on will only effect the rate of flesh wound hits, but deadly hits will just be all by luck and volume of fire. (Though skill with a smoothbore weapon I might tend to cap pretty low anyway, I'd at least want the range and cover to matter.)

* I'm not sure what you mean by "when you add guns to the mix"? (My context from our Cidri campaigns, was we had very few guns, and many more heavy crossbows.) If it's just the ITL tripod 12-pound arquebus, wouldn't that be a pretty injurious thing to get hit with when unarmored - notably worse than a crossbow quarrel? But maybe you mean having more common and varied guns?

* I think if you get to the point of trying to use TFT for gunfights with guns that allow you to run around and fire around corners and do pop-up attacks and overwatch and opportunity fire during movement and so on, that there start to be issues with the hex grid and five-second turns and lack of ways to model that. But as long as people need to nearly stop to fire... then mainly just opportunity fire (and maybe better cover rules) is missing.


(* Seems to me this whole thread but particularly this firearm tangent probably belong in the House Rules subforum particularly in light of recent requests from the management.)
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