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Old 04-15-2012, 08:13 PM   #51
Wildcat
 
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Okay. So, the rules on BS270 are not really all that clear but they do specifically say that you specify the ST of the weapon when you buy it. Which implies that a shortbow doesn't have to be ST 7. As best I can tell there is absolutely nothing either specifying any limit on the ST you specify for a new bow, or assigning any meaning to the ST entry in the stat lines for a bow or crossbow.
For my games, I think I'll use the listed numbers as the lowest strength ratings those weapons are available at. I do like the idea of the highest strength rating they're available at being triple that number, as you suggested earlier; it's nice and symmetrical with melee weapon maximum damage.
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Old 04-15-2012, 09:00 PM   #52
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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Wait, that's right? Where can I find those rules written down?
I think I make the suggestion in The Deadly Spring, on p. 11, on the section on War Points. I say it requires Very Fine (Hardened) for TL3 and TL4, and Fine (Hardened) at TL5+.

Hardening, though, is such an obvious thing to do to armor that knocking it down a step and allowing Fine (Hardened) at TL3 or TL4 wouldn't crush anything, and x4 applied to a $1,000 piece of armor is still WAY more than x4 applied to a single arrowhead. That puts it in the regime of "the rich can afford it" where it belongs.
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Old 04-15-2012, 09:01 PM   #53
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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This isn't exactly on-topic, but I didn't think it warranted a whole other thread: what is the cost to buy a bow or crossbow with a rated strength above the default for that weapon? For example, could I buy a shortbow with rated strength 10? And how much would that cost?
This isn't always clear, but you ALWAYS buy a bow or crossbow with a unique rated ST for that particular weapon.
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Old 04-15-2012, 09:10 PM   #54
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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So are the ST 7 for shortbows, ST 11 for longbows, etc. in the Basic Set and Low Tech just numbers pulled out of a hat?
Pretty much all min ST ratings for low tech weapons are pulled out of a hat, because low tech weapons generally weren't that standardized; you just got a weapon that fit your actual ST.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:40 PM   #55
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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I think I make the suggestion in The Deadly Spring, on p. 11, on the section on War Points. I say it requires Very Fine (Hardened) for TL3 and TL4, and Fine (Hardened) at TL5+.
Your armor-piercing heads list impaling damage, not pi or pi+. The pi damage type heads need special care to avoid a (0.5) armor divisor.
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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Hardening, though, is such an obvious thing to do to armor that knocking it down a step and allowing Fine (Hardened) at TL3 or TL4 wouldn't crush anything, and x4 applied to a $1,000 piece of armor is still WAY more than x4 applied to a single arrowhead. That puts it in the regime of "the rich can afford it" where it belongs.
...This is kind of weird since you've implicitly defined a modifier for armor that doesn't exist anywhere that I know of. I hadn't previously noticed, but the only Very Fine option listed for for Low Tech armor is Masterful Tailoring. Hardened Steel (TL4) is only Fine level, and there's no Fine or Very Fine (Hardened) as such at all.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:59 AM   #56
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Your armor-piercing heads list impaling damage, not pi or pi+. The pi damage type heads need special care to avoid a (0.5) armor divisor.
that sounds right. I'm on my work computer in Malaysia, so I was going from memory.

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...This is kind of weird since you've implicitly defined a modifier for armor that doesn't exist anywhere that I know of. I hadn't previously noticed, but the only Very Fine option listed for for Low Tech armor is Masterful Tailoring. Hardened Steel (TL4) is only Fine level, and there's no Fine or Very Fine (Hardened) as such at all.
Yes, I defined something new. That's one of the things Pyramid is for, really. I was faced with several pieces of data and had to cover the bases in a way that allowed for all of these points to be true.

Hardened Steel (TL4) is +4 CF, or x5 cost. It's effectively a bit more expensive than Fine, I think, which is usually x4 cost (again, from memory). What I did is stack the level of Hardened on to THAT to give it the armor divisor reduction, and call it Very Fine. Another way to go would be to say "you can add a level of Hardened to armor for another +4 CF." Doing that without the extra +1 DR would be a bit odd, but I don't know if it would break anything.

Fact is, and as I say in the article, hardness is relative. If you have armor of basically equal hardness to the penetrating object (like an AP arrowhead and hardened armor, or a regular arrowhead and non-hardened armor), these will tend to cancel out. In GURPS, that's either worth points or money; I picked money. Hardness is either extra DR, extra levels of armor-divisor cancellation, or both. Dan gave it +1 DR in Low Tech. I'm suggesting that a level of Hardened (from p. B47) is also appropriate. I didn't want to say "+1 DR is wrong," because I don't think it is. I didn't want to say "If you have hardened steel, you get a level of Hardened for free!" because that could be campaign-wrecking if you've already balanced armor and weapons in your game. So I chose to close the loop by allowing a level of p. B47 Hardened for extra money.

If you don't like it, you certainly don't have to use it, or you can pick a different mechanic to represent it.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:03 AM   #57
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

The main problem with hardened steel giving AP arrows is that it also implies AP spears with the same technology. Hardened steel arrows are basically just Fine quality arrows.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:25 AM   #58
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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The main problem with hardened steel giving AP arrows is that it also implies AP spears with the same technology. Hardened steel arrows are basically just Fine quality arrows.
One of the Low Tech books allows an impaling weapon to gain AD (2) with modification... And a suggestion from somewhere on these forums, to add a level through such hardening techniques from (2) to (3) for also X4 cost or so.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:36 AM   #59
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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The main problem with hardened steel giving AP arrows is that it also implies AP spears with the same technology. Hardened steel arrows are basically just Fine quality arrows.
Well, fine quality bladed weapons get +1 basic damage, and +2 for very fine. that would work too, in concept. You'd need to choose between Fine arrowheads getting +1 to basic damage (like swords) or -1 to opposing DR.

that would have Hardened armor and Fine/Hardened arrowheads cancelling each other out . . . which was my end goal.
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:45 AM   #60
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Yep.

You might also give TL3+ or TL4 armor that's Fine a level of Hardened "for free," to restore the balance there. Good mail and certainly plate were known to be very good protection from arrows, esp at range.
That's actually interesting. Basic Set defines Hardened DR, but I don't see it used anywhere, even in High-Tech. Perhaps I missed it.
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