[Basic] Advantage of the Week (#45): Duplication

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

When John Crichton was twinned for an entire season?

Not an example of the Duplication advantage. As for Duplicates who aren't disposable Triplicate Lass/Duo Damsel/Una comes to mind. Flashback is an odd case. His supposed power was to bring duplicates of himself back from the future. After a single duplicate died he retired from action to await his death. There are certain duplicators who have apparently dumped all their points into duplication, producing a maximum so high that if one or two die and can't be brought back, it would mean nothing to them. Others have simply never had any of their bodies killed.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Not an example of the Duplication advantage. As for Duplicates who aren't disposable Triplicate Lass/Duo Damsel/Una comes to mind. Flashback is an odd case. His supposed power was to bring duplicates of himself back from the future. After a single duplicate died he retired from action to await his death. There are certain duplicators who have apparently dumped all their points into duplication, producing a maximum so high that if one or two die and can't be brought back, it would mean nothing to them. Others have simply never had any of their bodies killed.

Crichton never seemed to have the benefit of being in two places at once, so they are effectively the similar characters being played at different times.

Riker was more of an Evil Twin situation, but he could have served in two different positions on the same ship (and sort of worked for himself for one short time).

From a metagaming POV, the player in either case could have paid for the dupe and kept him as either an ally or secondary body.

Madrox the Multiple Man is perhaps the most prolific duper I can think of, though quite a few other characters could use duplication. Iron Man, for example could use it to directly control drone suits. Jarvis even works better as an AI that is multi-tasking across multiple bodies. Kang the Conquerer has a nasty habit of creating time dupes (intentionally and otherwise). Perhaps some are allies, some are dupes, and others are enemies.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Toptomcat

I'm having difficulty thinking of fictional Duplicates that aren't disposable.

The duplicator form Agents of Shield duplicator weren't disposable. but most like Jamie Maddox or Naruto yeah are disposable.

Originally Posted by naloth

From the either dupe's view, the other is usually disposable, sure ;)

But I would not call Replicator accident twins Duplicates, simple because they do have the do have individualistic self-identitres AND lack the "coordinating" mental link... thy more like actual twins than Duplicates [under the Advantages model]

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by naloth

...
Riker was more of an Evil Twin situation, but he could have served in two different positions on the same ship (and sort of worked for himself for one short time).
...

I really loved that they didn't go the cliched route of making the from off screen twin evil or die in the doppelganger set up.
Didn't make up for the other episode where Riker murdered his growing clone.

[simply Nathan]

Limitation: Only if struck with a cutting attack that does exactly HPx3 injury.

If I'm not cut exactly in half, only the bigger piece of me survives. Perfect split down the middle means there are two of me until I fully heal or one of them dies.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by naloth

Crichton never seemed to have the benefit of being in two places at once, so they are effectively the similar characters being played at different times.

Riker was more of an Evil Twin situation, but he could have served in two different positions on the same ship (and sort of worked for himself for one short time).

From a metagaming POV, the player in either case could have paid for the dupe and kept him as either an ally or secondary body.

Madrox the Multiple Man is perhaps the most prolific duper I can think of, though quite a few other characters could use duplication. Iron Man, for example could use it to directly control drone suits. Jarvis even works better as an AI that is multi-tasking across multiple bodies. Kang the Conquerer has a nasty habit of creating time dupes (intentionally and otherwise). Perhaps some are allies, some are dupes, and others are enemies.

None of Kang's alternate selves are dupes because the important difference between a dupe and an ally who happens to be another "you" is that you can recombine with dupes. Without that capability Duplication is redundant.

[kirbwarrior]

I've never used it unmodified, because it carries so many random downsides that don't seem either correct in genre, realistic, or fun. However, one character I made used Duplication with modifiers to effectively have ATR but instead of multiple actions from one person, one action from multiple people. I also like the enhancement from Supers that lets you have way more out of combat (although I'm not entirely certain how it works for when one or more are forced into combate...)

I do have one houserule. Dupe Gear isn't not worth it at the price it comes with. I upgraded it so it copies all of your gear. Ammunition functions as HP/FP. If you drop, give away, or somehow otherwise lose the equipment, the item will only exist from the dupe that lost it (so if Dupe 2 is disarmed and loses her sword, the sword disappears from all dupes hands).

I also added a +0% modifier called "Location Only". It was inspired by how Fire Emblem does duplication. Instead of having multiple bodies, you merely exist in multiple places at once. Anything that affects you affects you regardless of which dupe it affects. Mind, I feel that it's a little expensive at normal price, but it still carries a weaker version of ATR so I don't know what to do about that.

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

GURPS is just really bad at pricing things that vary in power with your character point total like this. Allies is another example with the same problem.

I honestly can't imagine a better way to price them. If, for instance, an Ally or Dupe was worth 1/10th of your value, how could you have 20? And then are traits like ATR that aren't quite the same thing, and traits that can mimic a ton of the benefits at a fixed price (Unkillable 2 is effectively gained from enough Dupes). If anything, we could figure out the formula for a fixed price for multiplicative traits. Then again, nearly all traits in GURPS are multiplicative, and the ones that aren't are usually priced badly (ST, DR), not the other way around.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

None of Kang's alternate selves are dupes because the important difference between a dupe and an ally who happens to be another "you" is that you can recombine with dupes. Without that capability Duplication is redundant.

Kang could be a perfect example of the 3rd edition fugue duplication, which was part of duplication. Alternatively, he could be summoning Allies. It would depend if he controlled his counterparts or not.

I've always seen it as buying the ability to have multiple bodies under the player's direct control. Everything else is just enhancements, limitations, and special effects to describe how that particular type of duplication works.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I honestly can't imagine a better way to price them. If, for instance, an Ally or Dupe was worth 1/10th of your value, how could you have 20? And then are traits like ATR that aren't quite the same thing, and traits that can mimic a ton of the benefits at a fixed price (Unkillable 2 is effectively gained from enough Dupes). If anything, we could figure out the formula for a fixed price for multiplicative traits. Then again, nearly all traits in GURPS are multiplicative, and the ones that aren't are usually priced badly (ST, DR), not the other way around.

You could have 20 if each of them cost 1/10th of the character point total you would have without your dupes (for example, a 100 point character would be able to get 20 dupes for 200 points and anything bought afterwards which improves all dupes would cost three times as much). It should probably include a fixed cost as well though in order to not make it too inexpensive for low point characters.

Multiplicative traits in general seem more problematic to me. A mere 200 points in Wealth (which is a trait for which each level gives a multiplicative improvement) would give you a greater income than the combined military spending of all nations in the world!

[Otaku]

I adore the Duplication Advantage, but from examples in fiction (Naruto, Jamie Madrox, etc.) and not from firsthand usage. For various reasons, all my characters with Duplication never actually saw play whether I was the GM or a player. ^^'

With what I have read and seen, including in this discussion, I think there is a significant risk to allowing Duplication in a campaign; it seems like one of the easier ones to break, probably because the aspect that balances it out forces a kind of "awesome versus awful" split: Dupe permadeath versus disposable Dupes. The former ends up being a really big hurdle for the player, the latter for the GM.

Except there is a second "awesome versus awful" split due to CP costs, though it is into more than two categories: Too Low To Matter, Are You Kidding Me, and Just Right. That last one is really hard to hit: when players have enough CP (and GM's have enough Skill) that Duplication won't be cost prohibitive or a stupidly good bargain.

Put them together, and you've got a lot of scenarios where price structure of Duplication doesn't work well. I don't have time to properly explain it, but I wonder if treating Physical Duplication a bit more like other physical Extra traits (Extra Arm, Extra Head, etc.) could be a good idea. Regrowth can be pricey, but it seems like a nice way to handle a character that can eventually regain a dead Dupe. If it only works for that, the appropriate Limitation can make it a bit more affordable. Dupes aren't truly disposable unless we add in a high level of Regeneration, and if we do that, we're talking about a lot of CP (even with Limitations). Enough to buy other potent trait/trait combinations, ones that at least superficially look to be as potent.

The other thing to touch upon is whether or not Duplication should have a Variable Cost. I... don't know. Please keep discussing this. XD