05-18-2016, 01:13 AM | #1 |
Join Date: Sep 2015
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Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
Okay, so we've been playing, and things have been great, but we've noticed a few... irregularities. This post covers four major questions I've got.
1. Hitboxes So we're considering moving from narratively-determined hitboxes to rolled/called hitboxes, because we want to make combat more lethal, and we've decided that we need hit locations to implement wounds, crippling damage, etc. However, we've realized something strange: A trained swordsman would definitely keep as much of his body away from the enemy as possible, but nevertheless the enemy can still call a shot against his back left foot, and as far as I know there is no avenue for the swordsman to "improve" his dodge; his front left hand is at much risk as back left foot. I am aware of the fencing weapon parry being +3, easier to ready, etc. But this means that, as far as I can tell, a trained gladiator swordsman can't improve his chances of dodging with stance or skill, except by getting combat reflexes. 2. Impaling Weapons We have a spear-wielder, and he is a killing machine. We don't use combat distance very strictly, but we do have a rule that if someone is too close he has to shove, hit with the butt of the spear, retreat, etc. Is there some kind of bonus to parrying spears, avoiding them, or something else? Because he has impaling damage, any successful attacks he makes automatically do really severe damage, and usually the enemies are stuck on his spear and as such are further incapacitated. Is that pretty normal? Or is combat distance the ceiling on impaling weapons? Some guidance here would be nice. Additionally, he has SL14 with spear, which honestly I feel is preposterous because he's a merchant and not a gladiator, but that's his own character. This means he almost never fails his attacks, and as a result pretty much just mows down foes. Some guidance/comments would be appreciated. 3. Rigid armor I have a judgment call to ask about for rigid armor. The blunt trauma mechanic only applies to flexible armor, and only if all the damage is absorbed. Because almost all other weapons are cutting/impaling, this puts crushing weapons at a pretty clear disadvantage. Historically, maces/warhammers were used explicitly to deal with plate armor, but GURPS doesn't seem to reconcile this. My friend suggests that maces are designed to deal with higher DR, rigid armor with their straight bonus damage. However, a steel breastplate is DR 5. Which means that my guy, with a weapon explicitly designed to counter rigid armor, with his 1d+3 damage, can only do a maximum of 4 damage to a knight's chest. This just seems incongruous to me, considering that in all-knight situations, typical weaponry was pretty much entirely maces or warpicks. 4. Hit chances We have a lot of narrative explaining away of missed strikes as "he manages to curl himself away from you, and the sword narrowly passes in front of his chest." This seems a little strange considering we're all warriors. Is this the result of no one taking "evaluate" maneuvers? Or is this the difference between SL10, SL11, and SL12, as I see 12 describing professional skill level? |
05-18-2016, 01:41 AM | #2 | |||||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
OK quick reply will try and expand later (when I get to work) EDIT: OK I've added a bit more.
One thing some of the stuff I mention below is in supplements namely Martial Arts and Martial Arts: Gladiators. I recommend both but especially the former if you're going to get into more detailed h-t-h combat with lots of clever tactics etc. Quote:
There are rules in Martial Arts: Gladiators for angled stances that presents one side and denies the other. And also for focussed defence which focuses your defence against one side at the expense of the other. Improving dodge is matter of either doing so directly by improving the underlying stats or taking enhanced defence: dodge, or taking manoeuvres that allow to you to dodge better (Defensive attack, or All our Defence, retreat etc) Also not sure what you mean by "fencing parry being +3 easier"? Its better in combination with retreat than others, and it get less penalties for multiple parries in a turn (it comes with some down sides as well though) Quote:
Spears are good, cheap and effective weapons. But you might want to enforce the reach rules especially the rule for swapping between reach ranges (depending on what spear they are using). Get into Close combat range will hurt him as well. But also armour, every point of DR will stop 2 points of Imp injury. What kind of ST's are we talking about here, that can make a significant difference (especially with RAW) Quote:
What are you giving his opponents in terms of defences? Assuming no other factors someone with a skill of 12 and a medium (2DB) shield should be parrying him at Parry 11 or 63% of the time. Shields are great, also those tactics for helping increase dodge above will help his opponents to stay alive as well. Quote:
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However in general you do have an issue that by RAW ST based hand held weapons will quickly start giving unrealistic effects against armour as ST increases. This issue and how to tackle it is regular topic here, you will be able to find threads pretty easily. Quote:
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But you also have defences succeeding. Take that Skill 14 merchant you mentioned earlier. Yes he'll be on target 91% of the time, but he'll also succeed on his normal parry with just that skill 50% of the time. So your descriptions will change accordingly. Anyway cheers and let me know if all that makes sense and/or you have more questions TD Last edited by Tomsdad; 05-19-2016 at 03:42 AM. |
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05-18-2016, 04:31 AM | #3 | ||||
Join Date: Sep 2015
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Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
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Speaking of active defenses, we realized that one of our PCs took a cloak because he thought it was cool, and it has been giving him +1DB this whole time and we didn't realize. Because that +1DB is quite impactful we're using damage to shields. What are some typical rules for when that's targeted? It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me to say that a successful parry or block by the DB of the cloak means that I parried with the cloak. A dodge would, however. Also, do you prioritize hitting the cloak first, then the shield? |
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05-18-2016, 05:06 AM | #4 | ||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
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OK quick set up: ST10 3lb Broadsword (1d+1 cut) and ST10 3lb small Mace (1d+2 cr) Both vs. DR5 mail The sword on average does 4.5 and won't beat the mail The mace on average does 5.5 but the mail is only DR3 vs. Cr so will actually do damage on average. Now as I said this get's into a big topic about hand held ST derived damage vs. DR, but I'm trying to stick to basic RAW for the moment! Just quickly blunt trauma is almost a red herring at this level as it's unlikely to apply. You have to do at least 5 points of Cr damage against flexible DR that will stop all that Cr damage (or 10 for Cut/Imp attacks which is even less likely). Quote:
The stance rules in MA:G add a bit of detail in that turning side on and having your weapon in your trailing hand can effect that weapons reach so you might end up negatively effecting your ability to fight. The reality is for more low level fights having an arm crippled is pretty much going to be the end of a fight. Or certainly the beginning of the end Quote:
The corollary is the GURPS combat system also gives various ways to fight defensively. Should you ever want to draw your combats out give your mooks big DB3 shields, and the shield wall training perk. Quote:
But you seem to be talking about using a cloak and shield at the same time (which I guess you could do one in either hand, I'd allow the defender to chose which took the potential damage in the case it came up)? Last edited by Tomsdad; 05-18-2016 at 09:55 AM. |
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05-18-2016, 07:38 AM | #5 | ||||||||
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
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However, I should note that, unless using a barbed head, thrust impaling weapons don't get stuck like swing impaling weapons do - the default assumption for a spear strike is that you stab and withdraw (leaving your weapon free to Parry incoming attacks). If the character opts to use a barbed head (which makes thrust impaling attacks get stuck just like swing impaling ones do), keep in mind that while his spear is in his foe's gut, it's going to be extremely awkward - if not outright impossible - to Parry with it, and he can't Retreat without abandoning his weapon. Quote:
Mowing down his foes is due to your houserules that make mowing down foes easy. If your issue is that the other characters have rather low levels of skill and thus tend to miss frequently, consider Telegraphic Attacks from Martial Arts - these greatly increase your hit chance but make it easier for enemies to defend. The spearman still has an advantage over his less-skilled allies, as he can either attack without giving his foes a better chance to defend or can burn the bonus from TA to target hit locations. Quote:
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And, yeah, at skill 10, 11, and 12, you're likely to see a decent number of outright misses - 1/2, 1/3, and 1/4 of all attacks, respectively. Evaluate, Telegraphic Attack, and Committed/All Out Attacks can give you bonuses to help offset this. Quote:
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Do note that cloaks have rather low Cover DR, meaning when it gets hit, it typically just means you get a little extra DR (1 or 2) rather than the attack actually being stopped by the cloak. Shields, on the other hand, typically have sufficient Cover DR to negate attacks up until the shield breaks. |
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05-18-2016, 08:42 AM | #6 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
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Martial arts differ widely about what stance one should adopt in single combat, and in real fights much less chaotic than a typical fight in a RPG, those ideal stances tend to go out the window. GURPS combat is not particularly realistic, but it gives ordinary people a way to resolve a wide variety of situations, and it makes it possible to translate between everyday language and GURPS jargon in a straightforward way. It does not create those issues of "you hit him with your blaster pistol, but not hit-hit, just inflicted Hit Points of damage" which more abstract systems create. Styles which prefer to keep a hand and weapon forward are likely to get the Fencing bonuses to defence. Quote:
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"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature Last edited by Polydamas; 05-18-2016 at 09:21 AM. |
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05-18-2016, 09:26 AM | #7 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
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Parrying Weapons: Unarmed combat skills – including Judo and Karate – parry weapons, swung or otherwise, at -3. Failure by 3 or less means the parry still “succeeds” in the sense that you got your limb in the way. The attacker hits the parrying limb instead of his intended target, and rolls his usual damage. In close combat (only), ignore this drawback for Judo and Karate parries vs. rigid crushing weapons – clubs, sticks, etc. But as you say wouldn't matter in the case of trying to do so with a crippled limb |
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05-18-2016, 11:56 AM | #8 | |
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
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So, let's pick a couple of weapons (thrusting broadsword, mace and flintlock pistol) and see how they do against rigid and non-rigid armor. For our purposes everybody is ST 10 for basic damage and skill doesn't matter since we're assuming a successful hit. This gives us 1d+1 cut or 1d imp for our thrusting broadsword depending on whether we slash or thrust with it, 1d+3 cr with our mace and 2d-1 with a .51 flintlock pistol. A double mail hauberk is flexible armor with DR5/3. If we slash with our broadsword, we will only penetrate the armor on a roll of 5 or 6, which will allow either 1 or 2 points of damage to get through and it is multiplied by 1.5, so we do either 2 or 3 points of injury. If we roll a 4, then we do 5 points of damage which is fully absorbed by the armor and, as it is not 10 full points of damage, no blunt trauma injury occurs. Since nothing in the blunt trauma rules implies that the damage accumulates from round to round, we can never give blunt trauma from a ST 10 character wielding this weapon in that manner. The average injury done by our thrusting broadsword when it slashes against a double mail hauberk is ([0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 2 + 3] = 5/6 points of injury. If we thrust with our broadsword, we only penetrate the armor on a roll of 6, which will allow 1 point of damage to get through and it is multiplied by 2, so we do 2 points of damage. If we roll a 5, that damage is fully absorbed by the armor and again, as it isn’t 10 full points of damage, there is no blunt trauma injury. The average injury done by our thrusting broadsword when it is thrust against a double mail hauberk is [0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 2] = 2/6 points of injury. The .51 flintlock pistol penetrates the armor on a roll of 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12, which allows 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 points of damage to penetrate and it is multiplied by 1.5 for 2, 3, 5, 6, 8 or 9 points of injury. A roll of 6 will be fully absorbed and again, it is less than 10 full points of damage, so no blunt trauma occurs. The average injury done by our pistol when fired against a double mail hauberk is [0 + 0x2 + 0x3 + 0x4 + 0x5 + 2x6 + 3x5 + 5x4 + 6x3 + 8x2 + 9x1] = [12 + 15 + 20 + 18 + 16 + 9] = 90/36 = 2 3/6 points of injury. Because our mace is a crushing weapon, the double mail hauberk only gets DR 3. The mace penetrates on a roll of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 doing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 points of damage which is multiplied by 1 for the same number of points of injury. Since the mace always penetrates, the blunt trauma rules never come into play. The average damage done by our mace when it strikes against a double mail hauberk is [1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6] = 21/6 = 3 3/6 points of injury. A heavy steel corselet is rigid armor with DR 7. Since it is rigid armor, blunt trauma doesn’t apply. I.E., if no damage actually penetrates the armor, no damage is taken. If we slash with the thrusting broadsword and roll a 6, we do 7 points of damage which is completely absorbed by the DR of the armor, so no damage gets through. The average damage done by our thrusting broadsword when slashing a heavy steel corselet is 0 points of injury. If we thrust with our thrusting broadsword and roll a 6, we do 6 points of damage which is completely absorbed by the DR of the armor, so no damage is done. The average damage done by our thrusting broadsword when thrusting is 0 points of injury. If we fire our .51 flintlock pistol, we penetrate the armor on a roll of 9, 10, 11 or 12, doing 1, 2, 3 or 4 points of damage which is multiplied by 1.5 for 2, 3, 5 or 6 points of damage. The average damage done by our pistol when fired into a heavy steel corselet is [0x1 + 0x2 + 0x3 + 0x4 + 0x5 + 0x6 + 0x5 + 1x4 + 2x3 + 3x2 + 4x1] = [4 + 6 + 6 + 4] = 20/36 points of injury. Our mace penetrates the armor on a roll of 5 or 6 for 1 or 2 points of damage multiplied by 1 for the same points of injury. The average damage done by our mace when it strikes a heavy steel corselet is [0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 1 + 2] =3/6 points of injury. Since none of our worked examples caused any blunt trauma injury, let’s do an example that does invoke those rules. The armor is a TL 9 Tactical Suit which is flexible armor with DR 20/10 and we’ll use two weapons, a maul wielded by a ST 13 warrior and a 5.56 mm TL7 Assault Rifle. The maul does 2d+3 damage and the assault rifle does 5d. The armor is DR 10 to the maul which then penetrates it on a roll of 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12, doing 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 points of damage which is multiplied by 1 for the same number of points of injury. On a roll of 7, 10 full points of damage are done but fully absorbed by the armor thereby doing 2 points of blunt trauma injury (1 for each full 5 points of absorbed damage). A roll of 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 does 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 points of damage which is fully absorbed by the armor and as all of these amount to a full 5 points of damage each inflicts 1 point of blunt trauma injury. The average damage done by the maul is [1x5 + 2x4 + 3x3 + 4x2 + 5x1] = [5 + 8 + 9 + 8 + 5] = 35/36 points of damage from penetration and [1x1 + 1x2 + 1x3 + 1x4 + 1x5 + 2x6] = [1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 12] = 27/36 points from blunt injury trauma where the weapon didn’t penetrate the armor for a grand total of 1 26/36 points of injury. The armor is DR 20 to the assault rifle which then penetrates it on a roll of 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 or 30 doing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10 points of damage multiplied by 1 for the same number of points of injury. On a roll of 20, 20 points of damage are done but fully absorbed by the armor doing 2 points of blunt trauma injury (1 for each full 10 points of injury). A roll of 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 or 19 is also fully absorbed by the armor and as all of these amount to 10 full points of damage each inflicts 1 point of blunt trauma injury. The average damage done by the assault rifle is: [1x540 + 2x420 + 3x305 + 4x205 + 5x126 + 6x70 + 7x35 + 8x15 + 9x5 + 10x1] = [540 + 840 + 915 + 820 + 630 + 420 + 245 + 120 + 45 + 10] = 4585/7776 points of injury from penetration and [1x126 + 1x205 + 1x305 + 1x420 + 1x540 + 1x651 + 1x735 + 1x780 + 1x780 + 1x735 + 2x651] = [126 + 205 + 305 + 420 + 540 + 651 + 735 + 780 + 780 + 735 + 1302] = 6579/7776 points of blunt trauma injury where the bullet did not penetrate the armor for a grand total of 1 3388/7776 points of injury. From these examples we can see a few things: First, the mace was a better choice than either the thrusting broadsword or the flintlock pistol against the double mail hauberk, doing 140% times as much damage on average compared with the pistol and either 420% or 1050% as much damage on average compared with the thrusting sword, depending on how it was employed. Second, the mace was an infinitely better choice against the heavy steel corselet compared to the thrusting broadsword which couldn’t penetrate it at all and marginally worse than the pistol at 90% of the pistol’s average damage. Third, blunt trauma injuries increased the average damage from the maul by, very roughly, 50% and more than doubled the average damage caused by the assault rifle. Put the other way around, flexible armor let anywhere from 150% to more than 200% damage through as to compared to rigid armor with the same DR, solely as a result of rigid armor providing complete protection against blunt trauma injuries. Last edited by Curmudgeon; 05-18-2016 at 01:14 PM. Reason: reformatted for easier reading |
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05-18-2016, 01:44 PM | #9 | ||||
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
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With the way GURPS damage works, thrust impaling damage often doesn't measure up well compared to swing cutting damage, especially at higher ST levels or (bizarrely, though addressed by some optional rules) against armor. Distance is slightly more of an issue for spears than for some other melee weapons, but unless you're using one of the longer spear types not a lot and with the right perk that can be mitigated. Somebody that fights really close in can get inside your reach, but that's just as true if you use a sword, mace, or axe. (And they probably can't stay there long enough to be a problem unless you're unwilling or unable to move, or they grab you to stop you from moving.) Quote:
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The thing to remember about people who are at least somewhat competent fighters missing blows is this: it only happens because they're trying to do other things at the same time. If all you care about is hitting the target, you do a Telegraphic All Out Attack (Determined), for +8 to hit, and even with skill 10 you're at approximately never failing. In a real fight, you also usually want to not get hit, so you don't All Out Attack much, and you don't want your target to easily dodge, so if you're good enough to hit without it you don't usually Telegraphic Attack either. And thus if you're only moderately good rather than having skill at 16+, sometimes trying to avoid getting hit or making your move completely obvious to the target is enough of a distraction that you don't manage to actually land the blow.
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I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident. |
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05-19-2016, 03:28 PM | #10 | ||||||
Join Date: Sep 2015
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Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
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We won't need it since we're TL2 (and I don't think we're going to encounter lorica segmentata-type armor, either, but what are the recommended rules for making combat against soldiers wearing this armor doable? I suppose integrate the "chinks in the armor" rules, right? What else could be done? Quote:
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And as for the former, that's how I've been dealing with it so far. It sometimes feels muddy and "hacked together" when we do it that way, like we're missing an aspect of how it would really turn out. This thread has so far made it clear that I need to read the whole of low-tech, at least! |
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Tags |
armor, combat distance, impaling, question, rules |
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