The gods make a comeback

[Parabola]

I was mulling over ways the pagan gods could make a comeback just when it seemed they could never come back from how beaten down they are.

This all hinges though on them being right that Yahweh was one of them and just got powered up from all the worship. It is rather a slippery slope for angels to say that the pagan gods are just spirits that gain essence from worship but their god isn't.

"Buuuut, your god is the most widely worshiped god on Earth with the three (arguably four depending on what the supreme deity of Hinduism really is) religions. He has millions of worshipers for every one worshiper any other god has. No wonder he's millions of times more powerful with all that essence."

Some of my ideas are simple and maybe simplistic. Set the story a hundred years in the future. Real belief as opposed to "lip service" has weakened and weakened with every generation. The playing field starts getting more equal not because the pagan gods have gotten all that more powerful but because the Abrahamic religions have become less powerful, sort of reflecting real life influence.

Some ideas involve real life events. The tragedy of 2001 caused tremendous resentment of Islam by the West. What if there was enough of a schism from Judaism, Christianity and Islam being in such direct conflict and each refusing to acknowledge the other two as the same god that it vastly weakened how much essence "God" gets?

The pagan gods claim "God" gained so much worship that it made him more powerful than them and he learned some trick too. What if the "trick" the god of the Abrahamic religions (and maybe Hinduism) learned was that the entire Israelite pantheon that once existed or at least the male deities (Patriarchal, after all) learned to form a gestalt mind of sorts, become one being? As Yahweh, Allah and the Christian Trinity, the same gestalt "trick" still works. Instead of separate gods getting that essence, one gestalt deity gets it all. Now, if only those pagan gods or some of the powerful ones were willing to form a gestalt and modernize to gain more worshipers. Sort of like a Wiccan thing of how "God" is still supreme but has a female and male aspect instead of being "all man".

Then again, when you think about it, some modern pagan beliefs might 'slip in the door'. Modern neo-paganism is actually closer to Hinduism than to genuine ancient paganism in the respect that neo-paganism often pictures one all-powerful deity (with a male and female aspect) and the other gods are just parts of that deity personified much as Hinduism pictures the 'many gods'. Maybe some just eventually agree to tithe a share of essence to heaven as the Hindu gods do. But that's a peaceful solution. Might not be the best one storywise. :)

Any ideas on how the pagan gods could still have a fighting chance? Is there much interest in a pagan-centric approach? I just think its an interesting concept.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Parabola

Any ideas on how the pagan gods could still have a fighting chance? Is there much interest in a pagan-centric approach? I just think its an interesting concept.

Folk religion is becoming more and more prevalent in China now that the PRC no longer suppresses it. China and Hindu India together of course are most of the world's population. I'd say it's only a matter of time.

[Archangel Beth]

Oh, I only posted this to the mailing list?

The main part I want to focus on - for the purposes of this thread - is the excuse for Uriel's little setback. The concept that there's a Strand of God, that an ethereal could partake of, would be one way to empower the old gods... Lucifer'd undoubtedly be searching for it (quietly, oh so quietly) for himself, but if someone else found it...

Originally Posted by Me

{Why, yes, I do have a guilty pleasure. Anyone who thinks this is canon for anything is just plain wrong. Well, except the date of the Purity Crusade, which I looked up in the GMG.}

In 715 AD, Uriel started the Purity Crusade, to destroy the power of the ethereals and the ethereal gods. The Crusade went to the borders of the Far Marches, with the armies of heaven battling spirits of the dreamworlds in Domains that twisted the very fabric of time.

Uriel... lost. And humanity's purity was shattered forever.

Somewhere beyond the near Marches that Dreams and Nightmares claimed, a dark ethereal power arose, rallying the bloodied pantheons and spirit tribes. Its followers called it the Demiurge, and claimed it had found the same power of transcendence that Yaweh had - that it, too, partook of the Strand of God. Truth or not (Seraphim couldn't tell), the Demiurge seemed to have a great power to control those who swore fealty to it, and those who claimed it had created them entirely.

As the angels of Purity were beaten back, the Princes of Hell took the opportunity to harry Heaven's forces. One, Saminga, went further - defecting from Hell with many of its demons in order to join or destroy the Demiurge (or possibly both). On Earth, a new breed of vampire arose, not just existing as a failed mummy, but _thriving_ upon the blood of living beings - and upon their Essence. Ethereal crossbreeds became common: shock troops of the ethereal and vampire commanders who sought to undermine human free will and celestial influence.

Uriel, wounded and nearly broken, joined with Eli, Blandine and, unexpectedly, Jordi, in an effort to repair the damage the Demiurge seemed able to cause to the Symphony. And at the end, Uriel was gone (dissolved into the Symphony or ascended to the Higher Heavens; there's yet debate), and the Symphony no longer tolerated the free passage of non-humans between the realms. The ethereals and celestials who remained upon Earth were locked into their vessels as if they were corporeal beings, tied to the wheel of life. Human dreams are not so inviolate, but are difficult for ethereal or celestial beings to affect. [1]

Eli was one of those. Jordi, who first learned how to shape vessels in the form of corporeal beings, might have been, save that not all of a Kyriotate can be contained; what loss is a few dozen Forces in various vessel-hosts, to a Kyriotate Archangel?

No one knows what happened to Saminga or the Demiurge.

(Or, for that matter, the Grigori.)

Hell smirked; they had their own pet human, after all. Lilith had cracked open the gates of Hell once, and surely she'd accomplish the same thing.

To the Princes' horror and Lucifer's profound lack of comment, the Princess of Freedom refused. Whether she'd made a bargain with the Archangels, or just felt she'd not been properly recompensed for opening Hell, she doesn't say for free, and the price has always been too high.

The state of the Symphony is thus: only human free will can bring a non-human across the realms, and few humans have the strength of will _and_ the knowledge to achieve this. Fewer still have the ability to build a vessel for the ethereal or celestial to inhabit; a mortal host must be provided (who may be the summoner itself) if the being is to stay longer than a handful of minutes. [2] Lilith, the obvious human with will, power, and knowledge, charges an immensely high price to summon a demon. Or an ethereal. Or an angel. How high? Unless you're a Superior, better not to ask. You can't afford it. (Or maybe you can; you probably won't enjoy it, though.)

Meanwhile, the world is full of a multitude of strange things who, annoyingly to most of Heaven, tend to breed true and accordance with "survival of the fittest." (Jordi would be the least annoyed, yes.)

The vampires, most clearly influenced by Saminga, were most shunned by those Heavenly forces still able to interact with humans. The Princes were much less picky, and found that - if they paid the gatekeeper well enough - they could occasionally alter the Forces of the vampiric "bloodlines," granting attunement-like powers that drew upon and advanced the influence of their Words. Not all Princes were willing to pay the fee charged, though.

Jordi, naturally, embraced the shapeshifters. Those of his Servitors who are somehow brought through... often wind up in were-vessels. Only Jordi can grant a were-vessel. Kyriotates of Jordi are given a single insect as a vessel - they possess animals normally, but one Force is always tied to the "anchor" vessel. Without it, they are drawn back to their Hearts.

Other forms of crossbreeds, less able to win the favor of a celestial power and Word, were less successful and either died out, or hid away in tiny, inbred enclaves. Some interbred with humans sufficiently that the powers of their ethereal side's strands faded entirely, as did any odd appearances. Still, occasionally a human will have the proper mix of mortal and non-mortal genetics to have a _themed_ power, rather than simply the potential for sorcery.

Eli eventually vanished; his detractors fear he became mad, trapped in a vessel rendered immortal by the constant renewing power of Creation. His allies believe (or hope) that he is simply working to promote the causes of Heaven where he can't be found. Dominic's private nightmare is that Eli is stalking any remaining Grigori with intent to soul-kill them; the punishment for the Watchers was exile, not soul-death, and if the Archangel of Creation _is_ cracked enough... Will Dominic himself have to venture to Earth to stop him? [3]

Grittybits:
Anyone going to Earth has, essentially, a one-way ticket. They'll be there till their vessel is killed or dies naturally. Likewise, getting killed tends to bump you back to the end of the line unless it was one spectacularly successful "well, I lost the vessel, but I saved the Earth from Cthulhu" death. No celestial forms allowed. [4]

Contrast is mixed. Angels and demons who are new to the corporeal realm are extremely high-contrast. Celestials who've been on Earth for a long time tend to become rather low-contrast; humanity rubs off on them.

Brightness is variable. Most of humanity seems to be puttering along _pretty_ well, but there are patches of intense darkness.

Humor is up to the GM.

Tethers are between Uncommon and Rare; they form Uncommonly, but one that stays around for very long is Rare.

Celestials and ethereals, combined, are Rare. Disproportionately represented, on Heaven's side, are Laurencians [5] and Jordites, with the remainder slightly biased towards Creationers. There are only a tiny few of Blandine's around corporeally. On Hell's side, Andrealphans and Nybbytes have the lead, with Fate's forces creeping upward as Hatiphas (via alliances with Beleth) teaches humans how to summon demons. [6] No one (except maybe Liith) is quite sure how many Free Lilim might be on Earth. They keep an amazingly low profile.

Quantity vs. quality be damned - Princes will only pay for potent demons to get to Earth. Meanwhile, since dealing with Lilith is not something that Archangels are likely to do, getting an angel to Earth tends to require Laurence or Jordi to approve the transfer, and the whole matter takes a lot of prayer (and occasionally a dead body). GMs should seriously consider 12 Forces being the minimum for PCs.

Disturbance is still Bad. It disrupts Tethers (which irritates Superiors, and they _do_ have ways of letting you know about it), it attracts celestial and ethereal attention... And it can attract the attention of many of the quasi-humans - vampires, weres, witches, etc. Fortunately, they're likely to assume you're something like them (vampire, were, witch, whatever), as are humans who're in the know, but they tend to be territorial.

Humans have 6 Forces a lot more often than normally; weres, vamps, and obviously witches have 6 by default.

Some of Saminga's old-style mummies, vampires, and zombis are still around. Hatiphas has taken a few under her wing. They don't self-reproduce, and generally have all the drawbacks listed in the CPG. They are not Fun Undead. (If an old-style undead is nommed on by one of the newer models, the GM is encouraged to make it a very unpleasant experience for all concerned. Probably poisonous, too. No turning the old model into the new!)


Footnote 1: Tethers provide Essence, and may be anchored at the celestial or ethereal ends - which stabilizes them well enough - but can rarely be protected. They wax and wane according to human actions.

Footnote 2: See current rules for celestial forms on Earth. Laurencian Servitors - yes, he was raised after Uriel... vanished - have the ability to use a willing and suitable human as a host, temporarily transforming the mortal into a figurative Sword of God, even as they are more literal metaphors themselves. This means that most angelic manifestations are likely to be Laurencians.

Footnote 3: That's a celestial-focused plot seed.

Footnote 4: And we're back to the INS/MV version of vessels, almost!

Footnote 5: See his Kyriotate attunement; it can be granted to other Choirs in this setting.

Footnote 6: It is well-understood that if Lilith ever catches Hatiphas, the Balseraph Word-bound is going to become a garter-belt. Probably a soul-dead one, but there's a betting pool about that.

Footnote 7, unreferenced in the text: No Saminga = no Legion war. Too bad, so sad. Yay, Rafe's around still!

[Parabola]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

Oh, I only posted this to the mailing list?

The main part I want to focus on - for the purposes of this thread - is the excuse for Uriel's little setback. The concept that there's a Strand of God, that an ethereal could partake of, would be one way to empower the old gods... Lucifer'd undoubtedly be searching for it (quietly, oh so quietly) for himself, but if someone else found it...

This sounds quite interesting in that it opens the playing field to a lot of character types players might be interested in, operating at a level of power they'd be interested in. Of course it could put angels and demons on the back burner so to speak.

Another idea though it has little to do with my original intent on this thread would be a variation on what you mentioned about celestials and ethereals needing hosts to sustain them in the corporeal realm. Angels or demons having to inhabit humans could be interesting. Not a kryiotate/ shedim thing but one human and it becomes a symbiosis with the human having some control and some access to the power. It sort of plays on the more modern idea of humans becoming angels or gods (ala some of Marvel Thor's Thor corps.) or demons merging with humans ala Ghost Rider types, albeit on a *much* lesser power level.

Oh its all as un-canon as anything can be but then, the game writers themselves point out that some of the biggest questions will never be answered in canon materials implying that, if a GM or players have any interest in such answers, it has to be by way of individual campaigns.

[alexondria]

I did a version where the symphony was what was all powerful and the angels and demons both lost site of humanity- casualties for the greater good became to acceptable so the symphony turned to the ethereals- it empowered Isis and allowed her to recreate fallen gods- mythically Isis had the power to turn mortals into gods by burning away their humanity was why I picked her- and she used it to start and army that became the third side to stop heaven and hell from wiping out humanity in their war

[BillionSix]

Vaguely related, but you might like it: http://www.o-cast.com/

[Parabola]

Originally Posted by BillionSix

Vaguely related, but you might like it: http://www.o-cast.com/

I'll take a look. Thanks.

[Parabola]

Originally Posted by alexondria

I did a version where the symphony was what was all powerful and the angels and demons both lost site of humanity- casualties for the greater good became to acceptable so the symphony turned to the ethereals- it empowered Isis and allowed her to recreate fallen gods- mythically Isis had the power to turn mortals into gods by burning away their humanity was why I picked her- and she used it to start and army that became the third side to stop heaven and hell from wiping out humanity in their war

This is the suggestion I like best so far of them all. I thought of that possibility too, that there is no actual "God", just Yves and his big secret or, as you phrase it, his harmony with the Symphony. Also, your idea puts the gods on an even playing field with the angels and demons power-wise. More than a few angels with a conscience might even jump ship. The hierarchy of the arch-angels would be thrown into chaos if they understood what had happened. "God is no longer on our side?" Its technically not even non-canon as it assumes everything in the books is true but, after all that, this happens.

[alexondria]

Originally Posted by Parabola

This is the suggestion I like best so far of them all. I thought of that possibility too, that there is no actual "God", just Yves and his big secret or, as you phrase it, his harmony with the Symphony. Also, your idea puts the gods on an even playing field with the angels and demons power-wise. More than a few angels with a conscience might even jump ship. The hierarchy of the arch-angels would be thrown into chaos if they understood what had happened. "God is no longer on our side?" Its technically not even non-canon as it assumes everything in the books is true but, after all that, this happens.

That's actually what happened in my game- several of the pcs jumped ship to help the Ethereals and to fight from their side to make Heaven and Hell stop before they wiped out humanity.

[Parabola]

Originally Posted by alexondria

That's actually what happened in my game- several of the pcs jumped ship to help the Ethereals and to fight from their side to make Heaven and Hell stop before they wiped out humanity.

Nice. :)

When you say that Isis was powered up in your game, I'm guessing you mean Arch-Angel level, no longer quantifiable. I'm guessing she powered up some other gods as well as 'recreating' some gods that had been killed by 'ascending' humans. Even though she probably powered up other gods to arch-angel level, was Isis still above them?

That adds another good twist as a lot of players might like to play a human who gets ascended to godhood.

In your game, did the gods continue to be made up by Ethereal Players Guide rules or did you just have them made up by the same rules that celestials are made up by?

I actually set down and looked at the Arch-Angels and their servitor attunements and Distinctions. I tried to determine what pagan gods might be a rough equivalent to each Arch-Angel (in order to determine what attunements and distinctions might be handed out). But most of what I came up with seemed forced.

Besides, my personal gut feeling is that its really the sheer amount of essence a being wields that really matters. In other words, if you made a chararacter sheet for Michael (which I have) :), you'd see he is simply maxed out at 6 in all forces, has a LOT of skills and songs, most at 6 or at least 5, tons of servitor attunements and distinctions (his own and all of the ones from other arch-angels unless they would be contrary to his nature). But the thing that really makes him nearly invincible is that he has access to literally thousands of points of essence on any given day. If the Supreme Deities of the pantheons had that much essence and all the new pagan gods had as much essence as a new angel or demon, that really evens things up.