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Old 05-25-2018, 03:13 AM   #21
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Default Re: 4th Edition Vehicles

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Is the system generally similar to that in Spaceships? Or does it get closer to actual physics, the way Vehicles 3/e did (if not necessarily using the same system)?
It's closer in scope to Vehicles 2nd ed, just more up to date with current tech trends on models that are a closer fit to real life where possible.

While I haven't see it with my own eyes, from what I've heard it's going to be pretty sweet.
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Old 05-25-2018, 03:24 AM   #22
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Default Re: 4th Edition Vehicles

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Is the system generally similar to that in Spaceships? Or does it get closer to actual physics, the way Vehicles 3/e did (if not necessarily using the same system)?
The system is similar in nature and scope to the last edition of Vehicles (plus some of the expansion material). I believe it is a bit more realistic in its results. In particular, some performance formula have better physics engine - for instance, water and land speed calculations are more accurate. Realistic delta-V rules are there; underwater crush depth seems to work better, etc.

Complexity level is about the same, but there are a few more dials and switches, optional rules, etc. to cover various issues (like big ships dying too easily, or different interpretations of beam weapon lethality, or how superscience affects stuff).

You can build robots and so on fairly well - I did try designing a "human being" android w hose power to weight ratios, sizes, areas, weight of internal frame, etc. matched a human to make sure the resulting performances also work. Most of my testing suggested that historical vehicle designs come out pretty well with a lot less fudging then before. You don't get problems like 16-inch naval guns weighing only 30,000 lbs. instead of 270,000 lbs., for instance. Some of the fringe cases like hovercraft and sea planes work better.

There's still some finickiness due to the nature of the underlying design assumptions and some core abstractions common to both versions. And, of course, it's possible that things may change during the editorial or publication process.
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Old 05-25-2018, 03:43 AM   #23
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Default Re: 4th Edition Vehicles

The biggest problem I had with 3e's Vehicles was estimating Empty Space - for instance, for modeling longer legs or a van's cargo bay. Are there useful estimates given for such things, or is empty space less of a thing this time around?
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Old 05-25-2018, 03:43 AM   #24
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Default Re: 4th Edition Vehicles

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I probably would too...but a Spaceships-like system I'd be disappointed in advance and expecting further disappointment.
I might do some more Spaceships-based vehicle rules at a much later date if there is any interest (or just continue to add options to it through Pyramid...)

The idea, however, was that Vehicle Design would appeal to the hardcore gear head who had been ignored through much of the 4e line. At the same time, the books are definitely NOT intended to replace simpler options such as Spaceships, just to provide an extra detail alternative.

Please note, however, that at the moment while SJ Games have the Vehicle Design manuscript they haven't really had time to digest it yet. It is premature to speculate on when and in what form the actual book may appear.
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Old 05-25-2018, 04:07 AM   #25
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Default Re: 4th Edition Vehicles

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Originally Posted by Phantasm View Post
The biggest problem I had with 3e's Vehicles was estimating Empty Space - for instance, for modeling longer legs or a van's cargo bay. Are there useful estimates given for such things, or is empty space less of a thing this time around?
It's still something you need to consider, but I think the guidelines are better and it's easier to estimate things like legs at a glance due to inclusion of a "length" column in the new edition's surface area table and a few formula like

The cargo rules also have certain changes and most of the volumes of power train components were increased to make the volume that was previously added at the last minute from "access space" now a standard. Overall, I'd say it remains an issue, but it's a bit less of an issue.

"Add components, then wrap a hull around it" continues to remain the default (you go mad when building things like airplanes or anything with lots of sub-assemblies without using it), the "build the hull first, then add components afterward" option is covered right at the start of the book, and should you opt to use this, it lets you avoid some of the empty space decisions, albeit at the price of sometimes running out of space...
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Old 05-25-2018, 04:29 AM   #26
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Default Re: 4th Edition Vehicles

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Originally Posted by David L Pulver View Post
The idea, however, was that Vehicle Design would appeal to the hardcore gear head who had been ignored through much of the 4e line. At the same time, the books are definitely NOT intended to replace simpler options such as Spaceships, just to provide an extra detail alternative.
That sounds promising so far. I'm in the strange position of never having been able to use Spaceships, even though I bought it years ago; it makes no intuitive sense to me at all. I found both previous editions of Vehicles incomparably more accessible. I don't know if I'm a hardcore gearhead, but physics and engineering make sense to me and something about Spaceships just eludes my brain.

The worst problem I encountered in using Vehicles was that in designing seagoing ships, I could figure out length, beam, and draft, but there didn't seem to be a natural way to get freeboard. I ended up splitting the main hull into the part below the waterline and the part above it, and making the part above it a big superstructure, but I was never sure that was giving me plausible answers.
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Old 05-25-2018, 04:47 AM   #27
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Default Re: 4th Edition Vehicles

Sounds very promising! I'll finally be able to make my 45-ton strike starfighter, 75-ton combat mech, and 500 ton civil defense/counter-insurgency frigate. I'll definitely be using the "hull first, components after" approach for a lot. Thanks for including that.
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Old 05-25-2018, 05:44 AM   #28
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Default Re: 4th Edition Vehicles

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
The worst problem I encountered in using Vehicles was that in designing seagoing ships, I could figure out length, beam, and draft, but there didn't seem to be a natural way to get freeboard. I ended up splitting the main hull into the part below the waterline and the part above it, and making the part above it a big superstructure, but I was never sure that was giving me plausible answers.
The problem is that there isn't a simple way of knowing the freeboard when you only know those (plus presumably volume and mass), because you don't know the exact shape of the underwater hull and nor do you know the shape of the waterline cross-section. If you knew the latter and were willing to make a few assumptions you could take a guess at freeboard.

Your best best would probably be to make some guesses as to the hull form based on lines/streamlining.

In real life the complexity of this sort of thing was why pre-19th century ship-builders were generally very conservative about changes to their hull forms, and why 20th century navies spent a lot of money on tank testing and on skilled designers before they even thought about laying a keel. Even so, from time to time people get it wrong.
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Old 05-25-2018, 07:57 AM   #29
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Default Re: 4th Edition Vehicles

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Originally Posted by David L Pulver View Post

Please note, however, that at the moment while SJ Games have the Vehicle Design manuscript they haven't really had time to digest it yet. It is premature to speculate on when and in what form the actual book may appear.
Quoted and emphasized, because:
  1. The manuscript is very, very long.

  2. The manuscript is very, very complex, full of tables and formulas to check, edit, and lay out.

  3. We presently have just one editor for all of GURPS: me! PK has a full-time writing project, Steven has Pyramid to edit and all the projects to manage, and Nikki has all the projects to lay out. Nobody else at SJ Games works on GURPS.

  4. This project has a long history that includes significant resources having been expended on an earlier edit that didn't work out, so affording an edit of this length and complexity on current in-house or freelance editorial budgets is a phenomenal headache.
Sooo . . .

I'd really appreciate the GURPS community's complicity in not spreading rumors like "The final draft is in, so we should see the book any month now!" For a manuscript of this length and complexity, just having the final draft barely brings us to the halfway mark even when we can drop it directly into editing . . . which we cannot in this case. I know that's disappointing, but I'd rather a little short, sharp, but honest disappointment up front than a lot of broken promises that drag out into months or years of disappointment.
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Old 05-25-2018, 08:06 AM   #30
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Default Re: 4th Edition Vehicles

No problem, Kromm! I had a cautiously optimistic estimate in my head of a year before it headed to layout anyway, and that was assuming it didn't get sent back for a major re-write. Realistic head-estimate right now is end of 2021.
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