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Old 11-23-2016, 05:46 PM   #1
Shaun
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Default Independent Innate Attack

Please check me on this,:

I have an Innate Attack.
I get an Extra Attack, Single Skill (Innate Attack).
I give that attack Independent at either the 40%, or 70% level (you tell me which is appropriate).

Now, can I opt to use this independent attack as a parry?
If so, can I also attack in the same round, or do I have to choose between attack and defense?
If both, then do I apply the negative modifiers for multiple attacks/parries in one turn, or not since it's independent (maybe not if it's at the 70% level)?

If this build can't parry, how do I go about building a Point Defense System? Even better if it can attack as well...

Thanks.
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Old 11-23-2016, 06:08 PM   #2
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

How can you give an Innate Attack the Independent enhancement? The basic meaning of the Enhancement is: "This enhancement is for advantages that require concentration to control. Your ability demands no attention after the initial Concentrate or Ready maneuver to activate it." Innate Attack doesn't require concentration to control.

(You could probably use it with an Area Effect Persistent Mobile Innate Attack, but that's not really relevant to what you're trying to do.)

None of this build makes sense, honestly.

A point defense system is not something GURPS handles especially well, but you'd basically need a dedicated Compartmentalized Mind and some way of convincing your GM that aiming and attacking with the PD Innate Attack is a mental action.
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Old 11-23-2016, 06:09 PM   #3
Nereidalbel
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

What are you using Independent for? If your Innate Attack has the Melee modifier and you do NOT take the extra discount for Cannot Parry, it can parry as if it were a weapon. And barring a Requires Ready limitation, you are free to attack and parry in the same turn.
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Old 11-23-2016, 06:39 PM   #4
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

Extra Attack is not Extra Defense, nor Extra Maneuver or Extra Turn (ATR). "Each Extra Attack allows one additional attack per turn." That's lower-case "attack", not an Attack Maneuver. There are various ways to get more than one attack in a turn. Attacks aren't Active Defenses. RAW seems straightforward enough: no.

Kromm's suggestion in the uFAQ for "Extra Defense" is to use Extra Arm:
Quote:
Extra Arm 1 (Force Extension, +50%; Shield Mount, -80%) [7]
since each additional hand gets you one additional parry or block. This build does not, of course, insist on there being an actual additional general-purpose hand on the creature.

I'd probably even let you take Extra Attack and Extra Defense as AAs if you could only use one of the pair per turn.

Last edited by Anaraxes; 11-27-2016 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 11-23-2016, 07:17 PM   #5
Refplace
 
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Yukon, OK
Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

Chiming in on the "No" camp.
For an easy Point Defense I would likely go with.....
ATR (Single Skill (Innate Attack), -20%; Only Attack Maneuvers, -50%; -70%) [30]

EDIT Saw the Halo post.
For that I might go with another option I have used which is Duplication (One form Only, -20%) and possibly add gadget if the Halo is an item.
Than build an Alternate Form. This will typically cost more points than the ATR method but lets you be more flexible. In this case you could give the Halo AF 360 Vision and possibly other traits.
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Last edited by Refplace; 11-23-2016 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 11-23-2016, 08:19 PM   #6
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

I've mentioned it before (and I think I'm going to go ahead and make a thread for it), but I'm personally fond of the idea of repurposing IT:DR so that instead of dividing injury by some fraction, it gives a % chance of making an attack miss outright. Using something like that might work for you.
(EDIT: Thread can be found here)

Last edited by Varyon; 11-23-2016 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 11-24-2016, 03:40 AM   #7
Shaun
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Chiming in on the "No" camp.
For an easy Point Defense I would likely go with.....
ATR (Single Skill (Innate Attack), -20%; Only Attack Maneuvers, -50%; -70%) [30]
Altered Time Rate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
EDIT Saw the Halo post.
For that I might go with another option I have used which is Duplication (One form Only, -20%) and possibly add gadget if the Halo is an item.
Than build an Alternate Form. This will typically cost more points than the ATR method but lets you be more flexible. In this case you could give the Halo AF 360 Vision and possibly other traits.
We're trying to stay away from making it a gadget...
How would I give it 360 vision? Right now I'm leaning towards:
360 Vision (Panoptic 2 +60%, Single Skill (Halo) -20%; +40%) [35]. Does that sound right? The Halo isn't exactly a Skill. I guess I could call it Single Skill (Innate Attack). Is there a limitation which would work better (and preferably make it cheaper...)?
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Old 11-24-2016, 03:51 AM   #8
Shaun
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

Speaking of points...

Both the Innate Attack and the Extra Attack (or whichever route we determine is balanced) are divinely granted. I'm giving both Holy -10%. Incidentally, I've also added an extra Pact -5% vow.

Do these count as Holy Might Abilities which benefit from my Holiness for skill rolls?
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Old 11-24-2016, 09:12 AM   #9
Refplace
 
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Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
Altered Time Rate?



We're trying to stay away from making it a gadget...
How would I give it 360 vision? Right now I'm leaning towards:
360 Vision (Panoptic 2 +60%, Single Skill (Halo) -20%; +40%) [35]. Does that sound right? The Halo isn't exactly a Skill. I guess I could call it Single Skill (Innate Attack). Is there a limitation which would work better (and preferably make it cheaper...)?
Yes ATR is the common abbreviation for Altered Time Rate. It gives you an entire Extra Manuever each Turn.
OK skip the gadget than but add Divine so ATR is now 20 points with -80% in limitations.
Duplication is still probably better though if you want the 360 vision.
Duplication (Single Skill (specific form), -20%; Divine, -10%; -30%) [25] and Alternate Form (Divine, -10%; Once On, Stays On, +50%; +40%) [21]
So for 25+21=46 points you have a Halo as a duplicate you can turn on or off. It will take 10 seconds to form (the time for the AF to work is a feature, you can lower it with reduced Time or even add Reflexive to Duplication and AF if the Halo can turn itself on).
Than build the Halo as a racial template "Divine Halo" with as many points as you have in your racial template (0 points if your human) or add more if it needs it. The Once on, Stays on changes it from 90% to 100% though.
But lower ST and with disadvantages like Sessile, Portable and Pact you can lower its cost enough to probably work.

The ATR build will be cheaper and simpler but the AF build gives you more flexibility and works even if your main form is unconscious or helpless.
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Old 11-24-2016, 04:08 AM   #10
Shaun
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Kromm's suggestion in the uFAQ for "Extra Defense" is to use Extra Arm:
since each additional hand gets you one additional parry or block. This build does not, of course, insist on there be an actual additional general-purpose hand on the creature.

I'd probably even let you take Extra Attack and Extra Defense as AAs if you could only use one of the pair per turn.
So far, this seems the most logical to me.
The Halo counts as a the weapon/shield mount to the innate attack. Why Force Extension though?
Then would I make this Reflexive +40%?

Extra Arm 1 (Force Extension, +50%; Shield Mount, -80%; Reflexive +40%) [11]
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