Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Warehouse 23 > Warehouse 23 Digital

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-20-2008, 08:59 PM   #11
Dav
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

It's not Italian or Portuguese.

It's Interlingua.

I just checked those two text boxes mentioned earlier in this thread against the Italian and Portuguese versions. No luck. But it copies the Interlingua ones exactly.

I have Adobe Acrobat Pro, but I'm not sure how to run a text comparison (if that's even possible), so I can't do a closer analysis.

But you might want to look at the Interlingua version if you're trying to figure out what the heck kind of translation it was. Maybe who ever did the translation used the Interlingua as a base and didn't bother to translate the text boses.
Dav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 10:31 PM   #12
demonsbane
 
demonsbane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Spain —Europe
Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav
It's not Italian or Portuguese.

It's Interlingua.
Surely you are right. Thanks for checking it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav
(...) Maybe who ever did the translation used the Interlingua as a base and didn't bother to translate the text boses.
That seems likely. And the overall text isn't scarce in more displays of Interlingua, errors and improper use of the Spanish language.

The entire GURPS Lite Spanish would need a complete rework, for saying the least.
__________________
"Let's face it: for some people, roleplaying is a serious challenge, a life-or-death struggle."
J. M. Caparula/Scott Haring

"Physics is basic but inessential."
Wolfgang Smith

My G+
demonsbane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 01:09 AM   #13
Kuroshima
MIB
Pyramid Contributor
Mad Spaniard Rules Lawyer
 
Kuroshima's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The ASS of the world, mainly Valencia, Spain (Europe)
Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanj
Thanks for the insights guys!
No problem
Quote:
I read that the "Univision" TV station had to carefully chose a dialect (or at least accent) so that it would be appealing in all of the nations in which it is carried.
Trust me on this too, Latin American accent can severely HURT the enjoyment of TV for Spanish viewers. In fact I remember in the 80s-early 90s, when most cartoons aired in Spain used the Latin American voicing, and well, it's certainly harder to understand, and certainly unappealing.

Movies, TV series, cartoons, anime, ads, etc etc... all use a different voicing in Spain, then the one used in Latin America. The only thing that we get that doesn't get a complete redub, are the Latin American soap operas (and when my grandma watches them, it makes me grind my teeth. As I said, for some people, it can be VERY unpleasant.)
Quote:
I guess this is not as much of a factor in written works.
It can be noticeable, but the differences are mostly on accent and colloquial speech. Formal speech, that you expect to find in non-novel books, is mostly the same.
__________________
Antoni Ten
MIB3119
My GURPs character sheet
My stuff on e23
Kuroshima is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 08:29 AM   #14
Andrew Hackard
Munchkin Line Editor
 
Andrew Hackard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroshima
Trust me on this too, Latin American accent can severely HURT the enjoyment of TV for Spanish viewers. In fact I remember in the 80s-early 90s, when most cartoons aired in Spain used the Latin American voicing, and well, it's certainly harder to understand, and certainly unappealing.
It cuts both ways. In college, I listened to a couple of friends, one of Cuban descent and one of Puerto Rican descent (but both native-born Americans), talking about the differences in the Spanish they learned at home. There were quite a few, surprisingly. They agreed, vehemently, on two points:

1) They HATED being called "Mexican-American," although they conceded that in Texas, it was a logical assumption.

2) Castilian Spanish was hysterical to listen to.
__________________
Andrew Hackard || Munchkin Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games

Twitter: @SJGames || Facebook: SJ Games and Munchkin || Medium: @SJGames
Instagram: @stevejacksongames || YouTube: Steve Jackson Games

New Munchkin player? Visit our Munchkin 101 forum!
Andrew Hackard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 08:46 AM   #15
Kuroshima
MIB
Pyramid Contributor
Mad Spaniard Rules Lawyer
 
Kuroshima's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The ASS of the world, mainly Valencia, Spain (Europe)
Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard
It cuts both ways. In college, I listened to a couple of friends, one of Cuban descent and one of Puerto Rican descent (but both native-born Americans), talking about the differences in the Spanish they learned at home. There were quite a few, surprisingly. They agreed, vehemently, on two points:

1) They HATED being called "Mexican-American," although they conceded that in Texas, it was a logical assumption.

2) Castilian Spanish was hysterical to listen to.
I have no doubts that it cuts both ways. That's why non-Spanish TV shows/movies/videogames get two spanish dubs, one for Castillian (More like general neutral Spain Spanish, as we have quite a lot of different accents in Spain, and TV series are usually dubed to something like you hear in public news channels, i.e. some form of standardized, aseptic peninsular Spanish) Spanish and one for South America.

Now, I supose that the Latin American Spanish you get in TV/film dubs is also some sort of medium Latin American Spanish, since, at least to my ears, an Argentinian sounds rather different to a Mexican or a Cuban.

Back to the point, GURPS Lite Spanish Edition is in no way ready for distribution, and should be taken down from e23 until it is. It's IMHO damaging the image of SJGames on both the Latin America and the European spanish speaking comunities.
__________________
Antoni Ten
MIB3119
My GURPs character sheet
My stuff on e23

Last edited by Kuroshima; 12-21-2008 at 08:52 AM. Reason: clarifications and some things I though after posting
Kuroshima is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 09:03 AM   #16
demonsbane
 
demonsbane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Spain —Europe
Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroshima
(...) Back to the point, GURPS Lite Spanish Edition is in no way ready for distribution, and should be taken down from e23 until it is. It's IMHO damaging the image of SJGames on both the Latin America and the European spanish speaking comunities.
Kuroshima is completely right.
__________________
"Let's face it: for some people, roleplaying is a serious challenge, a life-or-death struggle."
J. M. Caparula/Scott Haring

"Physics is basic but inessential."
Wolfgang Smith

My G+
demonsbane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2008, 11:33 AM   #17
Steve Jackson
President and EIC
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

(SJ throws his hat on floor and stomps on it)

Okay, yes, there is definitely a problem. The BOXES within the Spanish edition of GURPS Lite seem to be directly copied from the boxes in the Interlingua edition.

This doesn't sound like anything to blame on the unlucky translator. That sounds like someone in our office was not fully awake when the files were laid out. (SJ stamps on his hat some more.)

We will take the file down as soon as possible; I doubt we'll get it fixed and replaced before the New Year, since most of the staff is on vacation.

Thank you all for calling this to our attention.

I'll probably have to sit down, myself, and compare each paragraph. Has anyone noticed any problems with sections OTHER than the sections in boxes? If so, which ones?
Steve Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2008, 03:16 PM   #18
Kuroshima
MIB
Pyramid Contributor
Mad Spaniard Rules Lawyer
 
Kuroshima's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The ASS of the world, mainly Valencia, Spain (Europe)
Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

It's late and I'm back from the university, but I'll try to get both Lite and Lite in Spanish side by side and compare, searching for both misplaced interlingua paragraphs and weak translations (Indice de fuego bing the most evident of the later category. "Cadencia de tiro" being the correct translation).
__________________
Antoni Ten
MIB3119
My GURPs character sheet
My stuff on e23
Kuroshima is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2008, 07:35 PM   #19
Almafeta
 
Almafeta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Y'know, around.
Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroshima
This is not a full review of the mistakes in GURPS Lite Spanish Edition:


This is not Spanish. It feels like Italian or Portuguese. This happens in most (or all, I didn't to a through checking) the text boxes.
That would be Interlingua. I translated GURPS Lite to Interlingua... Ironically, I was flamed elsewhere on the net for not knowing Interlingua because twice in GURPS Lite[IA], I used the Spanish 'mas' by mistake instead of proper Interlingua 'plus'.

Headings that are filled with Interlingua include: "Tabula de Posturas" (p. 30); "Mundos de Jocar" (p. 39), and all the text boxes (I checked).

I was going to volunteer to translate GURPS Lite[ES] but was afraid of putting too much on my plate again. But now it looks like I got into it after all ^_^

Last edited by Almafeta; 12-23-2008 at 08:12 PM.
Almafeta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2008, 05:36 AM   #20
Kuroshima
MIB
Pyramid Contributor
Mad Spaniard Rules Lawyer
 
Kuroshima's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The ASS of the world, mainly Valencia, Spain (Europe)
Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

I'm going to do a cursory search over GURPS Lite Spanish Edition, and try to locate all the mistranslations, pieces of the interlingua translation, strange sentence structures, etc. I'll bold the parts of a sentence that would need change. I'm going to tag each correction with one of the following tags:
  • [Interlingua] -> This is a fragment from the interlingua translation, should be replaced with the appropriate one form the spanish translation
  • [Mistranslation] -> This was either translated literally or simply the translator used a word that has the wrong connotation in spanish, even though it's a correct translation
  • [Sentence] -> The sentence, while maybe gramatically correct, doesn't make much sense in spanish, or is hard to understand.
  • [Style] -> This is a mere style suggestion, making the text more like something a native spanish speaker would write, instead of something translated from another language. Most of the time, it corresponds to either old sentence structures, old vocabulary, or simply that some parts can be left implicit
  • [Missing word] -> It happes to everyone, but it seems that someone forgot to put a word here.
  • [Grammar] -> Wrong adjective/noun concordance, or wrong subject/verb concordance, or some other miscelaneous grammatical mistake.
  • [Layout] -> This is a problem with layout
  • [Misspelling] -> A word isn't correctly written. Typos are included here


I'm no profesional editor, just a native Spanish speaker with a reasonable knowledge of English. My methodology might be incorrect, or my explanations might be less than clear. Sorry about that.
  • p1, in the index, "Mundos de jocar"-> "Mundos en los que jugar" (or, if too long, Mundos de juego. The later is in the glossary, so it's not a big deal.) [Interlingua]
  • p1, under "Que es GURPS", “Genérico: GURPS comienza con unas reglas simples, y va añadiendo más hasta el nivel de detalle opcional que quieras." -> “Genérico. GURPS comienza con unas reglas simples, y va añadiendo más, opcionales, hasta el nivel de detalle que quieras." [Sentence]
  • p1, under "Que es GURPS", "para garabatear." -> Either remove it, leaving it implicit, or change it to "para tomar notas." "Para garabatear" would means something akin as "to scribble". My recomendation is to leave it implicit[Style]
  • p1, under "Que es GURPS", Herramienta para iniciar a jugadores. -> This is indented and capitalized like it was a new paragraph, when in fact it continues the sentence above [Layout]
  • p3, under "disputas continuadas", "La de cada intento, en tiempo de juego, depende de la actividad y del juicio del DJ." -> "La duracion de cada intento, en tiempo de juego, depende de la actividad y del juicio del DJ." [Missing word]
  • p4, under "Tabla de Reacción", "pública humillación" -> "humillación publica" [Style]
  • p4, under "Table de Reacción", "una suplicas vitales" -> "unas suplicas vitales" [Grammar]
  • p5, under "Personajes", "quieress" -> "quieres" [Misspelling]
  • p5. under "Puntos de Personaje", "por ejemplo, -75 puntos en un juego de 150 puntos" -> "por ejemplo, -75 puntos en una partida de 150 puntos" [Style]
  • p5, under "Atributos Basicos", "Una puntuación de 10 en un atributo cuesta nada" -> "Una puntuación de 10 en un atributo no cuesta nada" [Missing word]
  • p5, under "Atributos Basicos", "El DJ puede prohibir puntuaciones por debajo de 8 a aventureros en activo." -> "El DJ puede prohibir puntuaciones por debajo de 8 para aventureros en activo. [Mistranslation]
  • p6, under "Fuerza (FZ)", "una FZ elevada permite absorber y distribuir el daño en combate cuerpo a cuerpo." -> "una FZ elevada permite absorber y infligir daño en combate cuerpo a cuerpo." "distribuir" most common meanings are "to spread" (as in spreading butter over bread) and "to distribute" (as in distributing mail) [Mistranslation]
  • p6, "Basic Levation" textbox [Interlingua]
  • p6, "Manetate" textbox [Interlingua]
  • p6, under "Fuerza", "La Fuerza es menos limitada" -> "La Fuerza esta menos limitada"[Mistranslation]
  • p7, under "Características Secundarias", "Puntos de Impacto (PI)" -> "Puntos de Vida (PV)". This sounds like a babelfish translation. It means "impact points". D&D and clones have used "Puntos de Golpe" that is a literal translation of "hit Points", but most other RPG systems use "Puntos de Vida" [Mistranslation]
  • p7, under "Características Secundarias", "Esquivar: Tu defensa Esquivar" -> "Esquiva: Tu Esquiva" [Style]
  • p7, "Basic Damno (Dam)" textbox [Interlingua]
  • p7, under "Imagen y aspecto", "Odiosos Hábitos Personales" ->This one is sort of borderline. IIRC 3rd ed used "Hábitos Personales Molestos", and either "Hábitos Personales Desagradables" or "Hábitos Personales Odiosos" would also work. My recomendation is "Hábitos Personales Molestos". The only advantage of the current translation is that it matches the abreviation of the original english term (OPH)[Style]
  • p8, under "Imagen y Aspecto", "Odiosos Hábitos Personales", see the above note
  • p8, under "Imagen y Aspecto", "Hábito Personal Odioso (HPO)" -> If "Odioso Hábito Personal" is maintained, then this one should be "Odioso Hábito Personal (OPH)". If "Hábitos Personales Molestos" is used, then it should be "Hábito Personal Molesto (HPM)"; if "Hábitos Personales Desagradables" is used, then it should be "Hábito Personal Desagradable".
  • p9. under "Riqueza e influencia", "soloe 1/2" -> "solo de 1/2" [Missing Word]
  • p9, under "Prestigio", "Tu lugar de reconocimiento en la sociedad es diferente de tu fama y fortuna." -> "Tu lugar formalmente reconocido en la sociedad es diferente de tu fama y fortuna." [Style]
  • p9, under "Prestigio", "hombre de la calle" -> "indigente" ("Hombre de la calle", by paralelism with "Mujer de la calle" could be interpreted as "male prostitute") [Mistranslation]
  • p10, under "Lista de Ventajas", "Caída Reducida" -> This matches the effect of the advantage, and is correct in itself. 3rd ed uses "Caida de Gato", that is mainly a literal translation. It, however, has the right connotations and any native Spanish speaker will understand it instantly. Either could work, and my personal preference matches the 3er ed translation [Style]
  • p10, under "Lista de Ventajas", "Defensas Intensas" -> "Defensas Mejoradas" Intenso means Intense, and while it might appear in a dictionary as a translation of Enhanced, it's not how most people will read it[Mistranslation]
  • p10, under "Defensas Intensas", "Escudar Intensificado" -> "Bloqueo Mejorado" Escudar means to shield someone or something, as it's first aception, and as such it's going to be understood. Escudar as Block is incredibply archaic. [Mistranslation]
  • p10, under "Escudar Intensificado", "Escudar" -> "Bloqueo" [Mistranslation]
  • p10, under "Defensas Intensas", "Esquivar Intensificado" -> "Esquiva Mejorada" [Mistranslation]
  • p10, under "Esquitar Intensificado", "tu puntuación de Esquivar" -> "tu puntuación de Esquiva" [Style]
  • p10, under "Defensas Intensas", "Parar Intensificado" -> "Parada Mejorada" [Mistranslation]
  • p10, under "parar Intensificado", "Tienes un +1 a Parar."-> "Tienes un +1 a tus Paradas."
  • p10, under "Difícil de Matar", "colapsas" -> Either "sufres un colapso", or if space is a premium, "caes" [Mistranslation]
  • p11. under "Saltador", "–o ta cerca como sea posible" ->"–o tan cerca como sea posible" [Misspelling]
  • p11, under "Lista de Ventajas", "Sin Miedo" -> "Valor". Replace the advantage name in the folloing paragraph too [Style]
  • p11, under "Talentos", "Artificiero" -> "Artífice". "Artificiero" is someone who is skilled in the handling of explosives [Mistranslation]
  • p11, under "Talentos", "Sutil Operador" -> "Labia" This one is hard to translate, but this is the most appropriate word. [Style]
  • p12, under "Desventajas", "tirada de autodominio" -> "tirada de autocontrol" Both are correct, but autocontrol is a term used in everyday speech, and autodominio isn't. Also, it is refered as Tirada de Autocontrol in the specific disadvantages[style]
This is what I have so far. I'll add more as I continue to thoroughly review the PDF
__________________
Antoni Ten
MIB3119
My GURPs character sheet
My stuff on e23

Last edited by Kuroshima; 12-25-2008 at 05:15 AM. Reason: Added errata that I didn't notive.
Kuroshima is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
spanish, translation

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.