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Old 02-14-2018, 08:04 AM   #21
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

The exception being characters with Berserk, Fanaticism, On the Edge, etc.
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Old 02-14-2018, 08:09 AM   #22
mlangsdorf
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

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Originally Posted by jsbrewster1 View Post
I have a lot more insight now as to how movement can affect combat. In my mock combat, I basically had 2 fighters toe to toe slugging it out, so to speak. But if the unslowed character moves out of range of the injured character, isn't it a Move & Attack at -4 to get back into range without being attacked herself? Otherwise, they are back on even footing again, as long as the injured party keeps making HT rolls.
Remember that Move and Attack gives you a -4 penalty to hit and prevents you from parrying with the weapon you used to attack and prevents you from Retreating before your next turn.

In a duel situation like that, the unwounded fighter (call him fighter A) should have used a Move to break contact and move away from his opponent (fighter B), and then let fighter B chase after him. This sets up three options:
* If Fighter B stays still, Doing Nothing, then Fighter A can use Move maneuvers to circle around him at a distance, trying to get behind him. This forces Fighter B to either risk getting All-Out Attacked from behind, or taking some other maneuver to turn and risking unconsciousness. Even with HT 12, he's pretty unlikely to stay standing for 5 seconds.

* If Fighter B uses an All-Out Attack to close the distance and attack, Fighter A can hopefully defend against one round of attacks (he can still retreat, after all) and then try something like an attack to the vitals or face against his defenseless foe.

* If Fighter B uses a Move and Attack, he's unlikely to hit with a maximum skill of 9. Assuming the two fighters end up facing each other and Fighter B attacked with his right arm weapon, Fighter A can then All-Out Attack to step to his left and step again into Fighter B's right flank hex. Fighter A then makes two attacks, or an attack at +2 damage, or an attack to the vitals, skull, or face, and Fighter B's only defense is a Dodge - at half his normal Dodge and with another -2 penalty for an attack from the flank. Even if Fighter B is a dodgy ninja who started the fight with a Dodge of 12, he's rolling against a 4.

When Fighter B hits 0 HP, he's at an enormous disadvantage if his opponent plays it smart.
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Old 02-14-2018, 08:11 AM   #23
JMason
 
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Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
The exception being characters with Berserk, Fanaticism, On the Edge, etc.
True, which makes these particularly appealing traits (IMO) for "boss" or lieutenant/mini-boss, characters. Not so much for "grunts".
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Old 02-14-2018, 08:47 AM   #24
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

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Originally Posted by jsbrewster1 View Post
Hi everyone,

Thanks so much for all of the information. I have a lot more insight now as to how movement can affect combat. In my mock combat, I basically had 2 fighters toe to toe slugging it out, so to speak. But if the unslowed character moves out of range of the injured character, isn't it a Move & Attack at -4 to get back into range without being attacked herself? Otherwise, they are back on even footing again, as long as the injured party keeps making HT rolls.

I will definitely look at the effects in the Martial Arts books, and I'm already considering some house rules around repeated shock. In my combat, the injured party was kicked for at least 3 points of damage every turn for 5 rounds, but missed in the 6th round, so no penalty to his attack after that. I'd think he'd be reeling for more than 1 second after being kicked 5 times in a row.
Basically again as Kelly Pedersen said, once one drops to half Mv the other has several ways to play distance games with them.

Lets assume both are base Mv6 to begin with which means All out Attack is 3 yard, move and attack is 6 yards.


But when Mv6 is halved to Mv3 All out Attack is 1 yard (since you round down) leaving you with Move and Attack at 3 yards if you want to do more than step, or All out Attack long to get a movement of 1 plus an extra yard of reach.


Step doesn't change for either at any point, (which also means a committed attack will allow for 2 steps if you go with the 2 step option).

So depending on what weapons are being used the person still on Mv6 can take a move action* to open the distance and stay within their Move and Attack range building some evaluates stepping back if their half Mv opponent tries to close the distance before they're ready.

Additionally while our Mv3 combatant has a couple of options for trying to surprise their opponent with quicker movement than 1 step. Committed attack (2 yards plus reach), AoA long (1 yard plus reach+1), AoA Slam (3 yards), Move and Attack (3 yards plus reach). Those options tend to involve removing their own option to retreat or a hefty penalty. And of course their opponent can retreat putting another yard between them in response!

The longer this goes on for not only is our Mv6 combatant racking up evaluates, but our Mv3 opponent is rolling to stay conscious and all the rest.

Now our Mv3 person can just not play that game and stay put and choose "do nothing" actions, and so don't risk dropping unconscious either. Except if they do that and your GM is using the realistic injury rules than pretty soon they'll be taking penalties direct to DX


*or even take a move and attack action where the attack comes early in the Movement and the remaining movement then opens the distance.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-14-2018 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:17 AM   #25
malloyd
 
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Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

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Originally Posted by JMason View Post
The last thing that I would purpose is that when you GM enemies... don't make them suicidal! Most people that are fighting to stay conscious are going to loose their will to fight. They will offer surrender, try to flee combat, or just collapse and feign death. Fights don't have to go on to the bitter end.
This is the source of a lot of complaints about the GURPS combat rules. They don't *force* you to surrender, back off, pause to look around, run away or otherwise do the stuff real people or animals do that make fights something other than attack wildly every second until one or both of you are dead - you need to simulate that yourself.

Negative hit points not cutting into combat effectiveness is arguably a bit of reality simulation of that sort - e.g. the wounded animal is not moving around much, and going to bleed out in a minute or two at most, but it's still capable of a couple moments of frenzied action that can badly maul you if you try to get close to help it.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:06 AM   #26
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
This is the source of a lot of complaints about the GURPS combat rules. They don't *force* you to surrender, back off, pause to look around, run away or otherwise do the stuff real people or animals do that make fights something other than attack wildly every second until one or both of you are dead - you need to simulate that yourself.
They can if you use the right optional rules.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:12 AM   #27
Stormcrow
 
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Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

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Originally Posted by jsbrewster1 View Post
In my mock combat, I basically had 2 fighters toe to toe slugging it out, so to speak. But if the unslowed character moves out of range of the injured character, isn't it a Move & Attack at -4 to get back into range without being attacked herself? Otherwise, they are back on even footing again, as long as the injured party keeps making HT rolls.
Remember that because GURPS combat turns are one second apiece, managing to attack an enemy for, say, another six seconds after being wounded and before passing out is actually not unreasonable. Unless you're particularly fragile, you have a decent chance of keeping up your strength for the next few seconds after taking a stab to the gut. Don't fall into the trap of thinking of other games' combat turns, which can last six, ten, or even sixty seconds each. Within seconds your wounds WILL catch up with you. Having high Health just gives you MORE seconds.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:22 AM   #28
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
They can if you use the right optional rules.
Yep. lots of fright checks.

Now TBF if the entire group is made up of individuals who will be passing them without much issue due to their backgrounds than OK cool I might dispense with them in all but the the most extreme or prolonged* situations. What tends to get interesting is when a group's ability to do to make them is mixed!




*I try to factor in long term ongoing negative effects can eventually get anyone!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-14-2018 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:05 AM   #29
johndallman
 
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Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

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Originally Posted by JMason View Post
Most people that are fighting to stay conscious are going to loose their will to fight. They will offer surrender, try to flee combat, or just collapse and feign death.
In WWI/WWII games, with very little armour and lots of 6d-7d rifle and machine gun bullets around, it's generally considered wise to lie low after being shot.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:09 PM   #30
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

I tend to play with one or more house rules that involve things like:
* not using the 4e limit of Shock to -4
* having Shock drop by half per turn, rather than 100%
* penalties to all rolls from major wounds
* modifiers to knockdown, stun, and consciousness rolls based on damage amount
* reworking how Berserk and High Pain Threshold work, so they just reduce injury effects but don't remove them

Even without house rules like that, however, in practice, people who are injured below 0 HT tend to be stunned, on the ground with no ready weapon, knocked back behind the fight, and/or roleplayed to do something other than keep attacking (especially since I also usually use the optional bleeding rules and track each wound separately, so people below 0 HT tend to be in danger of dying, and not wanting that outcome).

However when a fighter has high HT and/or advantages that let them reduce/ignore effects of injury, it can make them annoyingly hard to stop with torso attacks. I do like to nerf that with house rules, but you can also do other things to put them down, like leg/foot/weapon-arm/heat/vitals attacks.
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