What's the talent to actually use a sword against Chain or Plate?

[hcobb]

As we all know steel doesn't cut through steel, so what is the proper talent to use a sword as a club against a foe in metal armor?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-sword

[DarkPumpkin]

Originally Posted by hcobb

As we all know steel doesn't cut through steel, so what is the proper talent to use a sword as a club against a foe in metal armor?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-sword

You leave a wiki link without comment for us to digest. And your question itself is phrased in such a way as to suggest that you have an opinion, or are trying to nudge us towards enlightenment, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort to unravel what you're getting at.

Fewer socratic questions and oracular utterances, more cool ideas or simple questions please.

The rules already cover swords vs metal armor, so if you have a suggestion about house ruling to do it differently, why not make one.

[hcobb]

My suggestion is that armor be doubled against cutting weapons and non-cutting weapon damage be halved after accounting for armor.

Double and triple damage rolls will easily provide historical levels of lethality.

You shouldn't expect to kill somebody in chain with three body hits from a broadsword.

There is already an option to do aimed shots that bypass armor in HTH with a dagger, which was one of the usual means of dispatching somebody in full plate. (Or hitting them with a huge two handed weapon, especially as part of a charge attack.)

I would gladly be paid a million dollars to stand in 10th Century accurate gambeson and chain hauberk while an average man trained in sword fighting takes three swings at full strength against my abdomen with an average 10th Century accurate viking one handed sword. This is not even remotely a snuff request and I would be extremely unlikely to suffer life threatening injuries. This is because I've seen the videos, studied the details and I agree that armor works.

[Skarg]

I'm interested in realistic armor house rules for people who are wanting to try them, though they will throw out the original balance and design and greatly transform how combat works with armored figures.

To do it well takes I think quite a few adjustments and tweaks and probably some new rules about what to do rather than hack at people in armor.

For example, the suggestion to halve crushing damage after armor means a two-handed great hammer would only do 1d+1 to an unarmored person... that seems too low to me.

[hcobb]

Traditional one-hit kills on unarmored persons have either been cutting weapons or massive blows such as a cavalry lance.

Other weapons do kill with a single very lucky or very skillfully placed hit. TFT adds to Melee/Wizard triple damage hits the shrewd and aimed shots.

[Anthony]

The talent is "this is a game".

[RobW]

Originally Posted by hcobb

My suggestion is that armor be doubled against cutting weapons and non-cutting weapon damage be halved after accounting for armor.

I don't think we'll try it, as I don't think we have the interest in historical accuracy, but it's an interesting idea. Making armor more effective and death less sudden ought to make it easier for the PCs to live long lives.

I agree with Skarg, 1/2 damage from blunt weapons on unarmoured targets seems low, but that could be tweaked.

[Chris Rice]

Armour is never a complete covering of steel, there are always gaps in the protection and a sword can exploit these, either by edge or point, so a sword is by no means useless against metal armour.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

Armour is never a complete covering of steel, there are always gaps in the protection and a sword can exploit these, either by edge or point, so a sword is by no means useless against metal armour.

Yes, you can roll a double or triple damage or aim for the gaps with a shrewd blow. You will not cut the skin with a standard broadsword swing against an abdomen protected with gambeson and chain.

Kids are killed all the time with a single baseball bat swing, if and only if this hits their head. Hence almost everybody on the medieval battlefield wore a helmet, and a metal helmet when they could afford it. Then they worried about armoring the rest of their bodies.

When you see a cover with a wizard, an elf, a dragon, and a guy in full plate holding a shield and a one-handed sword you can be sure this is a fantasy setting because what's the shield supposed to do against threats that don't bounce off the plate and what's the sword expected to do against other fully armored people? Get thee to yon polearms shop.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0136.html

[larsdangly]

A fun topic!

I think you can't really get to a satisfying treatment of the armor-vs.-weapon-type arms race without a set of rules that is one big step more granular than TFT (i.e., GURPS). But below is a talent I wrote up many years ago that approaches half-swording (and other related skills) as a sort of advanced form of swordsmanship. It was written for my now-out-of-date house rules for the original TFT, but it isn't so terribly different from what one might create for the Legacy Edition. Some of what is written only makes sense in light of my house rules for parrying and multiple actions, but you can probably infer what I had in mind.

KUNST DES FECHTUNG (2): A set of advanced techniques for fighting with knightly weapons, including ‘half-swording’ (grasping a sword by the pommel and blade), and sophisticated blocks, binds and hacking and stabbing attacks. The character gains several advantages when fighting with any Great Sword, the War Sword, Arming Sword, Messer, Halberd, Bec de Corbin, Fighting Iron or Poniard. Each turn, he or she may pick one (and only one) of the following special abilities:

• Use any Great Sword, Arming Sword or Messer to deliver an attack in HTH combat.
• Deliver a ‘great blow’ on the same turn as performing one parry, second normal attack, or dodge. Otherwise, normal rules for multiple actions apply.
• Block with a great sword or qualifying pole arm, as if it were a 3-point shield, on the same turn as performing other attacks or parries with that same sword. The ‘block’ counts as an action in this case, and so multi-tasking penalty will apply to these other actions. This is an exception to the general rule that no weapon can be used for another purpose on a turn that it is used to block.
• Use your off-hand to perform punches or grabs on the same turn that the sword or pole arm is used two-handed for some other purpose. Normal ‘multi-tasking’ rules apply.
• Make a ‘Trip’ attack with a two-handed sword or pole arm—if it succeeds and is not parried, no damage is done but the foe must roll 4d vs. DX or fall to the ground.
• Use a Halberd or Bec de Corbin to engage foes 2 hexes away, provided the intervening hex is not blocked by another figure (friend or foe) or large obstruction. Foes engaged using this ability are treated as engaged in all respects (they can only shift one hex without changing distance from the character), and can be attacked normally. Importantly, the character is not treated as engaged when doing this (unless up against another fighter doing the same trick!). This can make it difficult for an opponent to close with you to attack with a shorter weapon.

Pre-requisites: SWORD, GREATSWORDS, POLEARMS, UNARMED COMBAT and DODGE talents. It is not possible to use the Fechtung talent when blinded, against invisible foes, or when suffering from a -4 or greater penalty to DX due to armor or encumbrance.