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Old 06-16-2019, 02:05 AM   #21
Plane
 
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

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Originally Posted by a humble lich View Post
It seems you are somehow double dipping by saying it is a shield so you get its DB because that is what the equipment gives and also saying it is invulnerable because you don't take the Can Be Broken limitation.
Can Be Stolen w/o Can Be Broken does indeed seem to be a cheap way to get some kind of indestructible cover (SM-0 being enough to hide entirely behind)

Although it's a bit confusing as "Size" is part of "Breakable" so I'm not sure if you can define a size with just Can Be Stolen.

Maybe having 31-35 DR should be a +5% enhancement?
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Old 06-16-2019, 08:16 AM   #22
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

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Originally Posted by a humble lich View Post
It seems you are somehow double dipping by saying it is a shield so you get its DB because that is what the equipment gives and also saying it is invulnerable because you don't take the Can Be Broken limitation. But rules wise I'm not sure if that's true.
I wouldn't call it double dipping, but the first time I made an invulnerable shield I had the Player define how much DR he wanted it to have and then simply stated it based off of DR and it being a shield as an item. I applied some hit location Limitation to reduce the cost and the Breakable SM limitation. It was still incredibly expensive and wasn't nearly as useful as it's cost would imply.

So later in the campaign I went with ED(B) just to have an Advantage to hang the Gadget Limitations off of. At this point though I'd be tempted to make it Signature Gear and have it supplied (and repaired) through a Patron.



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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
In my game I would require it have a power though to be an indestructible gadget not just signature gear.
If it were truly indestructible, yes. But as this was based on Cap's shield, which is broken and bent, and beaten up in the comics (though by neings that were beyond the power level my PCs were facing), I had the Player decide how 'indestructible' it was and he set it at 50 DR which made it basically "invulnerable to bullets, beams, and such", but kept it actually damageable by truly outrageous amounts of damage (for instance it was hit by a sticky plasma grenade once.... he had to get a new shield made).

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Unless they were really common in the setting.
It has nothing to do with commonality for me, it's all down to 'utility cost'. Is the ability worth the cost of admission?

If 'fighting with a shield that's conventionally invulnerable' is a PC's shtick, but not the main source of their capabilities (as is the case with Cap), then Signature Gear and Patron feel more appropriate to me.



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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Although it's a bit confusing as "Size" is part of "Breakable" so I'm not sure if you can define a size with just Can Be Stolen.
Sure, as I point out in my example, that's just Breakable, -0%. I always define Breakable in a Gadget even if the Gadget is literally meant to completely and totally unbreakable (however in the "completely invulnerable" case I'd also require some other Advantages to actually make the item unbreakable).
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Old 06-16-2019, 08:25 AM   #23
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
That's what the Gadget is. A shield.
Not really. It's an Advantage with gadget modifiers.

If you buy hand DR with gadget modifiers that doesn't mean it is necessarily a diamond encrusted glove. If you buy a magice gem that grants ED (Parry) it doesn't make it a sword. An Advantage with gadget modifiers doesn't let you declare that the gadget has some extraneous additional value or utility. Unless the GM is willing to let that slide.
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Old 06-16-2019, 09:21 AM   #24
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

If you want the Gadget to have the properties of an ordinary shield, all you have to do it give it Accessory Perk (Shield) [1]. Add extra features if you want to make it tougher or more impressive.

(This is also an answer to the question of "why should I pay for a 7D IA when I can carry an assault rifle"? The Perk lets the base value of an ability scale with TL to whatever normal equipment is.)
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Old 06-16-2019, 11:46 AM   #25
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Sure, as I point out in my example, that's just Breakable, -0%. I always define Breakable in a Gadget even if the Gadget is literally meant to completely and totally unbreakable (however in the "completely invulnerable" case I'd also require some other Advantages to actually make the item unbreakable).
There's no upper cap on the DR for -0% but no matter how much DR you give it (ten trillion?), it could be damaged by an "ignores DR" attack so you'd still have to define some HP for it and have niche situations where it could be wrecked.

You could afflict some Hardened and/or Cosmic DR to strengthen your gear but the original DR couldn't benefit unless GM allows you to afflict enhancements onto existing advantages, which sounds fine.
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Old 06-16-2019, 12:20 PM   #26
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Not really. It's an Advantage with gadget modifiers.
Which is then described as a shield. That's how Gadgets work.
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Old 06-16-2019, 04:47 PM   #27
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Which is then described as a shield. That's how Gadgets work.
You appear to have disregarded the points I made.

I could build an advantage that grants me Flight. If I happen to stick gadget modifiers on it I can't simply thereby assert it's a playable grand piano.
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Old 06-16-2019, 06:02 PM   #28
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
You appear to have disregarded the points I made.
Because your points were meaningless and not backed up.

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I could build an advantage that grants me Flight. If I happen to stick gadget modifiers on it I can't simply thereby assert it's a playable grand piano.
Sure you could. If you and the GM agree that your Gadget was a grand piano that granted Flight.

Or rather since you assert that this is not possible somehow, perhaps you'd like to explain why you couldn't?
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Old 06-16-2019, 06:08 PM   #29
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
You appear to have disregarded the points I made.

I could build an advantage that grants me Flight. If I happen to stick gadget modifiers on it I can't simply thereby assert it's a playable grand piano.
Supers actually has a section describing this and there are other examples.
You can use a mundane item as a gadget, you may need to pay cash or character points for it such as an Accessory perk or Signature Gear depending on what you want and the GM agrees to.
A playable piano that grants flight would be a little weird but maybe playing Stairway to Heaven is how it works.
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Old 06-16-2019, 07:24 PM   #30
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
A playable piano that grants flight would be a little weird but maybe playing Stairway to Heaven is how it works.
:|

I would demand the Character be playing The Great gates of Kiev.
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