One Arm with Telekinesis

[CarrionPeacock]

The Ectoplasmic Arm from the first Pyramid volume seems a little odd to me.
First it uses One Arm (Mitigator) but PK says here that one can have One Arm at full value even if they have Telekinesis. What's right here, mitigator or no mitigator?
The other issue is the "Temporary Disadvantage: One Arm" on Telekinesis, how can you have temporary disadvantage if you already have it as disadvantage Wouldn't this make it so the character can only use one arm, the ectoplasmic one or physical one at time?

I have another question about magical limbs. Is it possible to use Telekinesis (Animation) to have an arm made of water?

[Kelly Pedersen]

In the general case, I'd agree with PK - TK doesn't mitigate One Arm, because the way you use TK vs. an arm is significantly different. However, the Ectoplasmic Arm build seems designed to basically take away all the special circumstances that make TK different. Most notably, it's got Reflexive, which I assume is being used here to eliminate the need to Concentrate, and just make it work like a "normal arm". Since it's so much like a normal arm, I think the Mitigator to One Arm is justified in this case.

The Temporary Disadvantage: One Arm thing is a bit harder to justify. You're right, by the standard read of the limitation, it should effectively mean you have only one arm whenever you're using the TK advantage at all. I recently got into print (in the Technomancer issue of Pyramid, #115) a build that included a Temporary Disadvantage that only applied to the limb it was associated with, for which I effectively divided the usual Temporary Disadvantage limitation value in half. I'd do the same here.

However, I've always felt that TK is only limited to being "a pair of hands" when you need to manipulate something, and that if you're just lifting an object, it just applies even force everywhere. There seems to be no provision in basic TK for being unable to lift heavy or fragile objects because they won't take the strain of being lifted from a couple small points. So, for builds like this one, where the TK is constrained to always being a pair of hands (or, in this case, just one), I'd put a limitation on it, "Always acts like a pair of hands", which I'd price at -20%. So the build would actually work out slightly cheaper than the published one, with a net -10%.

As an aside, when asking these sorts of questions about Pyramid articles, it's probably best to specify the actual issue you mean - it makes it much easier to find. The "Volume" of Pyramid refers to which of the three eras of its publishing history an issue happened in. "Volume 1" is actually the print issues, way back in the day. The current, PDF-published issues, are "Volume 3". So the issue you're referring to would be "Pyramid Volume 3, Issue #1", or more compactly, "Pyramid #3/01". Or even just "Issue 1", since most people will probably assume you're talking about the current, easily accessible issues.

[whswhs]

I think this one is probably modeled deliberately on Larry Niven's character Gil Hamilton from one branch of the Known Space stories of the sixties and seventies. The peculiarities sound as if they derive from his psi power.

[CarrionPeacock]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

In the general case, I'd agree with PK - TK doesn't mitigate One Arm, because the way you use TK vs. an arm is significantly different. However, the Ectoplasmic Arm build seems designed to basically take away all the special circumstances that make TK different. Most notably, it's got Reflexive, which I assume is being used here to eliminate the need to Concentrate, and just make it work like a "normal arm". Since it's so much like a normal arm, I think the Mitigator to One Arm is justified in this case..

Sounds fair, thanks.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

The Temporary Disadvantage: One Arm thing is a bit harder to justify. You're right, by the standard read of the limitation, it should effectively mean you have only one arm whenever you're using the TK advantage at all. I recently got into print (in the Technomancer issue of Pyramid, #115) a build that included a Temporary Disadvantage that only applied to the limb it was associated with, for which I effectively divided the usual Temporary Disadvantage limitation value in half. I'd do the same here.

Glad to know I'm not the only one with doubts about that modifier but I don't follow you regarding it. Why would making "Temporary Disadvantage, One Arm" limited to an arm achieve? I don't understand what happens here.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

However, I've always felt that TK is only limited to being "a pair of hands" when you need to manipulate something, and that if you're just lifting an object, it just applies even force everywhere. There seems to be no provision in basic TK for being unable to lift heavy or fragile objects because they won't take the strain of being lifted from a couple small points. So, for builds like this one, where the TK is constrained to always being a pair of hands (or, in this case, just one), I'd put a limitation on it, "Always acts like a pair of hands", which I'd price at -20%. So the build would actually work out slightly cheaper than the published one, with a net -10%.

Does it prevent the TK from going through objects? If not I find it hard to justify -20% of this limitation.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

As an aside, when asking these sorts of questions about Pyramid articles, it's probably best to specify the actual issue you mean - it makes it much easier to find. The "Volume" of Pyramid refers to which of the three eras of its publishing history an issue happened in. "Volume 1" is actually the print issues, way back in the day. The current, PDF-published issues, are "Volume 3". So the issue you're referring to would be "Pyramid Volume 3, Issue #1", or more compactly, "Pyramid #3/01". Or even just "Issue 1", since most people will probably assume you're talking about the current, easily accessible issues.

Got it, thanks

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock

Glad to know I'm not the only one with doubts about that modifier but I don't follow you regarding it. Why would making "Temporary Disadvantage, One Arm" limited to an arm achieve? I don't understand what happens here.

The Temporary Disadvantage is on the TK advantage. Normally, TK provides you with two arms for manipulation purposes. Putting Temporary Disadvantage: One Arm on it (with the halved value I suggested above) means that it only provides you one arm, instead.

Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock

Does it prevent the TK from going through objects? If not I find it hard to justify -20% of this limitation.

My logic is that being limited to lifting with hands, instead of exerting uniform force over a large object, is mostly a limitation on the lifting function of TK, rather than its striking power (a TK ST 1000 punch is already effectively concentrated into a small area, otherwise it wouldn't do as much damage as a normal ST 1000 punch). The lifting element of TK should be worth roughly 40% of it, based on the fact that Lifting ST is about 40% of "ST!'s" (that is, ST with the HP sold back) 8 points per level. Thus, removing Lifting from TK completely would be about a -40% limitation. Since "always works as if you were using hands" doesn't eliminate all lifting, but definitely reduces your ability to pick up large objects, and is definitely a limitation on light-but-fragile objects as well, I figured about half that, or -20%, was about right.

[CarrionPeacock]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

The Temporary Disadvantage is on the TK advantage. Normally, TK provides you with two arms for manipulation purposes. Putting Temporary Disadvantage: One Arm on it (with the halved value I suggested above) means that it only provides you one arm, instead.

Emphasis mine. That's what I was missing, I could swear Telekinesis were equivalent to a single hand, not a pair (I had Elfen Lied in mind). That's what happens when you think you already know what the advantage does and refuse to read it again. Thanks for your patience in dealing with my ignorance.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

My logic is that being limited to lifting with hands, instead of exerting uniform force over a large object, is mostly a limitation on the lifting function of TK, rather than its striking power (a TK ST 1000 punch is already effectively concentrated into a small area, otherwise it wouldn't do as much damage as a normal ST 1000 punch). The lifting element of TK should be worth roughly 40% of it, based on the fact that Lifting ST is about 40% of "ST!'s" (that is, ST with the HP sold back) 8 points per level. Thus, removing Lifting from TK completely would be about a -40% limitation. Since "always works as if you were using hands" doesn't eliminate all lifting, but definitely reduces your ability to pick up large objects, and is definitely a limitation on light-but-fragile objects as well, I figured about half that, or -20%, was about right.

Makes sense now.
Edit: With my new, more precise understanding, I think the "Temporary Disadvantage, One Arm" makes sense, removing about 50% of an advantage utility (like accessibility, day only) is worth -20%, right? If Telekinesis gives you a pair of hands, but you can only use one, that sounds like 50% limitation worth -20%.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

However, I've always felt that TK is only limited to being "a pair of hands" when you need to manipulate something, and that if you're just lifting an object, it just applies even force everywhere. There seems to be no provision in basic TK for being unable to lift heavy or fragile objects because they won't take the strain of being lifted from a couple small points. So, for builds like this one, where the TK is constrained to always being a pair of hands (or, in this case, just one), I'd put a limitation on it, "Always acts like a pair of hands", which I'd price at -20%. So the build would actually work out slightly cheaper than the published one, with a net -10%.

An interesting premise. I've never really thought about it before, but we always played as though lifting force was distributed evenly where important, if the telekinetic wanted. We used the same assumption in Supers games with Super ST lifters. I don't think the "two hands" limitation should be worth so much, though unless you're doing a lot of massive lifts with your TK. It seems more like a typical Nuisance Effect.

[evileeyore]

I've always run TK as the 'pair of hands', so if lifting something heavy that could not just be lifted with two hands, there would be issues (breaking into pieces or at least being damaged by the handling).