Krokodil

[tantric]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Granted, dopamine is behind quite a lot of behaviour but IIRC there's a bit more to addiction than that - dopamine based addiction is what we used to call psychological dependance, but there's also genuine physical dependancy: a classic example being alcohol addiction which is more than dopamine based; alcoholic withdrawl can and does kill.

You switched your terms: dopamine is behind physiological addiction. Psychological addiction is something else. If alcohol were not dopaminergic, it would never get to the point of DT's based death, though the dopamine itself isn't the killing factor.

Consider that there are NMDA antagonists like ibogaine that flat cure all additions overnight. Of course, in the US ibogaine is a schedule I drug with no medical or legal use. This alone should tell you something.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by tantric

Clinical addiction involves dopamine. If you don't go into withdrawal, it's not addiction. ...".

That's not true. Addiction is about self destructive behaviors and inability to change easily or at all. Withdrawal is simply chemical dependency.
I will get severe symptoms if I suddenly stop taking my paroxetine or diabetes medication, but I'm not addicted to them by a long shot.
I almost qualify as being addicted to diet Pepsi, because of what I will do to get it, despite my better judgment or preference.

[tantric]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

That's not true. Addiction is about self destructive behaviors and inability to change easily or at all. Withdrawal is simply chemical dependency.
I will get severe symptoms if I suddenly stop taking my paroxetine or diabetes medication, but I'm not addicted to them by a long shot.
I almost qualify as being addicted to diet Pepsi, because of what I will do to get it, despite my better judgment or preference.

You are being very abstruse. Addiction is neurochemical phenomenon that involves a habituation to higher levels of dopamine. Most often this involves some kind of repetitive behavior, but it need not be destructive. When you stop this behavior, you experience dysphoria as the brain attempts to conserve dopamine (through a very complex process) but this is a very general approach and has all kinds of nasty side effects. This is simple addiction to things like meth - drugs that affect other receptors in addition to dopamine produce other withdrawal symptoms.

You WILL go into withdrawal if you go on a bean and rice diet. I don't care what you label it, MRI's and PET scans don't lie. The same part of your brain lights up when you look at a burger as does when you do a hit a meth.

You and I are not addicted to insulin, even given that I would die without it, because it doesn't stimulate the release of dopamine. You are not addicted to diet pepsi because your brain does not attempt to conserve dopamine when you don't get it. Now, if we did some Pavlovian thing to you with pepsi in place of the bell, that would probably work, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Ignoring this is like ignoring the basics of human behavior, like denying the existence of alpha males and basic human threat responses*. It's just weird and quite possible dangerous.

*Apes shriek, wave their arms and throw ****. Humans shriek, wave their arms and *talk* ****. Go, evolution!

[fifiste]

Originally Posted by tantric

Really? Oreos vs cocaine
The science doesn't support your opinion. There are those less prone to it, but we all have it, and most humans are highly functional food addicts. This exactly what I was trying to discuss in my thread that got locked. It's important, people. In my country, heart disease largely related to obesity is the number one cause of death. Food addiction is eating us alive.

Thats kind of hilarious test. You got rats deciding if they watn to eat high energy yummy food or rice cakes (the invention of devil himself) and then when they do not like cakes as much you say they are addicted to tasty food?
Why not make them choose between sub-zero section of a maze where they can eat grass, get beaten by a stick vs. warm section of a maze where they get petted and fed cheese and then announce that they seem to be horribly addicted to cuddles comfortable temperature and cheese :P

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by tantric

You are not addicted to diet pepsi because your brain does not attempt to conserve dopamine when you don't get it.

That's a pretty contradictory statement to the first half of your post. Your definition encompasses even non-chemical addictions - gambling, for example. A food reward can be entirely non-chemical - people are quite capable of conditioning themselves, it doesn't take an outside experimental situation.

[tantric]

Originally Posted by Bruno

That's a pretty contradictory statement to the first half of your post. Your definition encompasses even non-chemical addictions - gambling, for example. A food reward can be entirely non-chemical - people are quite capable of conditioning themselves, it doesn't take an outside experimental situation.

That is completely true - you could be conditioned to get that reward from anything. There are literal murder addicts out there. But the high fat system is either inborn or develops from babies craving milk. But the way he described Diet Pepsi was more like some fashionista being "addicted" to shoes - for all I know she* might be, shopping and consumerism are heavily tied to dopamine stimulation, but it's still a trivial use of a very serious term.

*Are there fashionistos? Spanish doesn't use the a/o thing on "ista" words as far as I know. "El es un comunista" right?

There are dozens of studies that support the link between the dopamine release from eating certain foods and drug addiction. This does not mean that you are a junkie destined to live in cardboard box because you like Twinkies (R). What it is, is your Naked Lunch. Looking at food and understanding what it means and what it does to you.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Heroin is supposed to be well nigh universally addictive, isn't it?

I don't buy this. I smoked smack once, and the sick feeling in my gut and constant itchign was enough to turn me off of the drug, permanently. I've never tried it since. I've smoked Meth a few times, and it's not too bad, same with Crack. I don't like the recovery the next day(working stiff, doncha know, i gotta be able to function 5 days our of the week).

I think a major component of drug abuse is pyschological, rather than physiological.

[tantric]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

I don't buy this. I smoked smack once, and the sick feeling in my gut and constant itchign was enough to turn me off of the drug, permanently. I've never tried it since. I've smoked Meth a few times, and it's not too bad, same with Crack. I don't like the recovery the next day(working stiff, doncha know, i gotta be able to function 5 days our of the week).

I think a major component of drug abuse is pyschological, rather than physiological.

QTF. Pretty much my experience, but I was too paranoid to say it. Meth sex is great but leaves me feeling gross. I don't get the appeal. But I'll do 2C-I or a tryptamine any chance I get. Are we inappropriate yet ;-)

[Flyndaran]

Just to be clear, I never said that I was truly fully addicted to anything. I wrote that I could ALMOST count as addicted to diet Pepsi in that I would go out of my way and against better judgment and morality to get it.
I wouldn't prostitute myself or stomp kittens to get it.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by tantric

QTF. Pretty much my experience, but I was too paranoid to say it. Meth sex is great but leaves me feeling gross. I don't get the appeal. But I'll do 2C-I or a tryptamine any chance I get. Are we inappropriate yet ;-)

It would be rather difficult for me to become addicted or even merely enjoy any illegal substance. I have no pleasant effects from opiates, and my anxiety makes any stimulant very painful. Even my experience with prescribed depressants have been troublesome.
What's left? Hallucinogens might be interesting, but my well known materialistic mindset wouldn't get much out of it.
Who needs willpower to stay clean, when you have unusual biochemistry? ;)