Total- and Partial Surprise (B393), who uses it?

[pestigor]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

There are two meanings of the word surprise being employed here. There is the sudden attack, which is "a surprise" — i.e., the characters didn't perceive it coming. There is being frozen, which is when you are "surprised" — i.e., you are feeling too startled to act immediately.

"The GM decides" is the ONLY definition of when surprise — a sudden attack being unperceived — occurs in the rules.



As I said before, Danger Sense is not the ability to be immune from being startled. If the roll is successful, it IS a way to reduce potential total surprise to mere partial surprise. But the true value in Danger Sense is in the GM giving the player a warning that something bad is coming.

Someone with Combat Reflexes is immune to total surprise. Someone with Danger Sense is immune to total surprise only if they make a Perception roll and the GM agrees that the danger they perceive is relevant to the pending surprise. But you're right: someone who succeeds at a Danger Sense Perception roll doesn't need Combat Reflexes to avoid total surprise. But they DO want Combat Reflexes for the bonuses to initiative during partial surprise.



Again, it's up to the GM, but as GM I would say no. My example is of NO surprise situation when the party was warned of the ambush ahead of time, and I would expect most GMs to do the same. But what you decide to do with a successful Danger Sense is up to the player, not automatically rolled into combat. If the scout in Situation 2 above had gotten the tingle of Danger Sense but hadn't gone looking for the trouble, there would have been no benefit because the party was already expecting trouble just by being in the area. If, instead of a ravine in enemy territory, the party was strolling through Central Park on a sunny day and King Kong suddenly appeared out of a vortex and started to attack, it would normally be total surprise (unless you had Combat Reflexes). But a Danger Sense coming first would kick that down to partial surprise: you started to expect danger, even on a sunny, peaceful day.










No, it has to do with knowing the attack is about to happen. You can "expect trouble" without knowing what kind of trouble is about to happen, or even IF trouble is actually going to happen.



I wouldn't use surprise in such a routine way. As GM, I would use my explicitly described authority to determine that no surprise exists.



If you know the ambush is going to happen, it's not a surprise, regardless of its exact origin.



This is something I commonly heard when I played D&D. "I'm always suspicious."

But unless you can accurately tell me what it is you're guarding against, BEFORE IT HAPPENS, I'm not going to be convinced. And if you actually try to guard against EVERYTHING, then as GM I'd be very motivated to label you the Boy Who Cried Wolf, and let you be surprised anyway.

If this is about policing players who are trying to abuse the system, I can't think of a better defense than putting it in the hands of the GM.



And as the GM, you are encouraged — nay, required — to come up with whatever method you like to determine whether there is surprise. If you just want to arbitrarily decide based on what you know, that's fine. If you want to require skill rolls of the players, that's fine. "The GM decides" doesn't mean the GM can't make use of any method the GM wants.



I disagree. The bonuses due to leaders and those with Combat Reflexes reflect the influence they have on others with their body language, warnings, etc. If the leader dives in one direction, the party will be influenced to follow his or her lead. If someone quickly shouts "Get down!" the others are given a motivation to get down quicker than they themselves could have processed what is going on.

It's almost as if people want to remove the GM from the resolution mechanics.

[Anaraxes]

Consider the use of the word "surprise" in a phrase like "surprise attack". Similar logic would have one argue "You're in the middle of a war; how can any attack be a surprise? Of course you expect the enemy to attack you. Your army is patrolling; you're expecting trouble." But we use the phrase nonetheless, and most militaries consider that slight degree of surprise as a significant advantage. The exact details of timing, location, forces, and so on matter.

Same with adventuring parties. Being prepared for a possible attack in general doesn't mean you expected that particular attack around that corner from exactly those creatures, so you can be surprised even though you know perfectly well that you're walking through the Tomb of Doom. "Surprise" doesn't have to be an event that's a completely unimaginable bolt-of-out-the-blue with a probability under one in a million.

[Ultraviolet]

Lot's of god input, thanks.

My 2 main beefs with the surprise rules as written are:
1) Remember to use them
2) The definitions of "Side" and "Leader"

As for #1, that's on me as GM. But since we run switching GMs, I may have to remember to ask the current GM "how surprised are we?"

As for #2, I think we have it covered by defining the "Leader" as the person noticing the threat or closest to it.

When trekking through the jungle, it'll be the scout on point. Or the rear guard for attacks frem behind. Or someone else in the middle of the line, because the point has failed to notice the ambush.
IMHO it is more fun if the "Leader" role switches, so ometimes it's the person smarter than the opposition, has Combat Reflexes, and has Tactics. Other times it's not.

For night-time raidds on the camp I see a divided situation. THe sentry is subject to Partial Surprise, and by being only one is naturally the Leader. Maybe the raider get the drop on him/her, or they don't.
Once enough noise or other sitmuli is enough to wake the others, or the sentry calls the alarm, they are Fully Surprised. The guy with Hard of HEaring has it even worse, unless someone pokes him.

As for Danger Sense, an old convention in my old 3rd ed days was to let the player know: "You sense something wrong" and allow him a split second decision for a simple reaction. A Dodge-and-Drop was a popular choice. Noone has it in my current campaign, at least to my knowledge. Afterwards the surprise mechanics kick in. Whether or not further surprised, the person with Danger Sense is at least Dodging, which may be relevant or instead look ridiculous.
IMHO Danger Sense does not prevent you from ever being surprised. You just get one instictive reaction which is an exception to being surprised.

[ajardoor]

I did use partial surprise rules, today, in the campaign.

Oddly enough, the party lost the intiative, despite being the ambushers - they threw a smoke grenade in, lost the roll because the enemy leader was Just That Good, and they had to recover from stun. Fortunately, they were in a very superior position, so the bad guys were ineffectual at shooting them.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by ajardoor

Oddly enough, the party lost the intiative, despite being the ambushers [...] and they had to recover from stun.

Kromm has weighed in on this situation. He provides an extra-textual ruling here:

Originally Posted by Kromm

Partial surprise is used when:

1. Two hostile parties are moving blind to one another and suddenly encounter each other, leading to a hasty encounter battle. This is likely when the two parties are patrolling or searching, and through blind luck step out from concealment and run into each other at engagement range. For this, roll initiative and follow the rules under Partial Surprise.
   
   
2. One party successfully sneaks up on another party that was expecting trouble. This is normally the result of winning a Quick Contest of Camouflage, Shadowing, Stealth, or similar vs. the prey's Per score or Observation skill. Don't roll for initiative! The Quick Contest above replaces the initiative roll, and victory at sneaking automatically gives the initiative to the sneaky party. The surprised party is affected as described under Partial Surprise.

I call it extra-textual because I'm pretty sure one cannot reach this interpretation from just the text alone. However, it seems eminently reasonable.

[Stormcrow]

Interestingly, Kromm also addressed this here, where he just follows the written rules and gives them justification.

Even if the ambushers somehow lose the initiative, all this really does is give the victims a "lull" in which to move, find cover, and/or look for their attackers.

[Ultraviolet]

So, springing an ambush is not a guaranteed succes.
Maybe the ambushers expect it to be like shooting fish in a barrel, but occasionally they run into trained victims.
So if the victims of the ambush act immediately, the ambushers may need a second or two to adjust, I can see that. Statistically the ambushers should not be inactive for long.