01-13-2018, 03:31 PM | #31 |
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
Just stepping in here to remind everyone to keep things polite. Overall this discussion has been; just a friendly reminder.
tbeard1999 is correct in that modding war-games and developing house rules is a time honored activity. He is sharing one of his with us, and this is a Good Thing. As others have pointed out, Ogre and G.E.V. are A) games, not exact simulations of armored conflict, and B) pretty well balanced as games, as evidenced by their longevity. These are also Good Things. The Hold Fire mechanic makes this "not-Ogre", but that doesn't mean it can't be fun. It is an interesting concept. Ideally these discussions can refine the idea (or illuminate possible flaws that might be corrected) for a possible article for Ogrezine! (Shameless plug . . .) D.
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01-13-2018, 03:36 PM | #32 |
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
Ogre is also a poor simulation of ancient warfare. Arguably an even worse one than chess is.
Ogre isn't a simulation of anything historical at all, it's a sf-skinned asymmetrical board game. Last edited by sir_pudding; 01-13-2018 at 03:47 PM. |
01-13-2018, 04:00 PM | #33 |
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
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01-13-2018, 04:01 PM | #34 | |
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
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And at least I didn’t add submarines and flying fortresses (see Greg Costikyan’s mods in TSG reprinted in The Ogre Book). Last edited by tbeard1999; 01-13-2018 at 04:05 PM. |
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01-13-2018, 04:11 PM | #35 | |
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
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First, I agree. You-go-I-go is often a source of artifacts in tactical and operational scale simulations. If you were interested in trying to make Ogre more simulation-like then the kinds of mechanics you are talking about are one way to do it. However, there is a plausible reason an AFV can't engage an enemy in its weapon range. Why can't indirect elements engage all targets in range today? Because just because a target you can't see is in range doesn't mean you have gun data for it. But, you say, Ogre assumes instantaneous, 100% reliable battlefield intelligence. Yes, but this conceit is actually just as unrealistic as the the GEV getting to shoot and move out of range without risk of return fire. Last edited by sir_pudding; 01-13-2018 at 04:17 PM. |
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01-13-2018, 04:16 PM | #36 |
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
My point is that like chess, Ogre is a board game that isn't especially representative of anything historical. It mainly is an asymmetrical zero-sum game with perfect information, that happens to have an sf-theme about giant robot tanks. It has just a little more to do with contemporary armored warfare than Ticket To Ride actually simulates a race across country on 19th century rail.
Last edited by sir_pudding; 01-13-2018 at 04:48 PM. |
01-13-2018, 04:52 PM | #37 | |||
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
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Why is it so important to rationalize an issue that has been understood to be a flaw in ugo/igo games since Panzerblitz? What’s so hard about admitting what is self evident to me - a stock ugo/igo system will always allow moving units to gain an unrealistic advantage? The sole exception is if moving units are not allowed to fire. That situation is only applicable to WW2. GEV is not some transcendent thing that is somehow immune to the rules that apply to every other game with similar systems. It is, in all likelihood, the igo/ugo game that suffers the least from it. But it still gives attacking units an unreasonable advantage that is implausible given what we know about modern AFV combat and the revealed nature of the Ogre universe. Quote:
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But if I’m wrong, that doesn’t make the “attacker ambush” tactic more realistic. If there is a significant fog of war, the defender invariably has more information than the attacker. His units are hidden and in the best terrain. That argues against “attacker ambush” tactics. Last edited by tbeard1999; 01-13-2018 at 05:11 PM. |
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01-13-2018, 05:02 PM | #38 | |
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
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And understand, I think “it’s an abstraction that occasionally allows aberrant results and I’m okay with it” is a perfectly reasonable response. Last edited by tbeard1999; 01-13-2018 at 05:11 PM. |
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01-13-2018, 05:18 PM | #39 | ||||||||
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
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My only point is that your arguments that return fire should be assumed to be accurate and instantaneous is the wrong argument. Indirect fires aren't either of these things. Quote:
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Your MTB versus helicopter expirements probably didn't bother to try to shoot at helicopters as far away as a single Ogre hex, and certainly not with their main gun. Nobody has tried to figure out how to shoot distant helicopters with howitzers or mortars either. There is a reason for this. Anyway this seems to be going nowhere, enjoy your house rule. Last edited by sir_pudding; 01-13-2018 at 05:25 PM. |
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01-13-2018, 08:25 PM | #40 |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Minnesota
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Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV
This is a concept that pops up on this board every few years. I started an iteration myself when I felt grumpy over a MSL not getting first shot on something with half its range. But it would make Ogre a very different game.
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