[DF] Maximum Skill Levels?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Technically wrong, as per the racial maxima table in Dungeon Fantasy 11, p. 5. It lists maximum HP and FP for the different races, by using the 30% rule, and then adding racial modifiers on top of it.

That's before one adds in specific occupational templates, though, which uniformly violate the FP limit for casters, martial artists, and others who use FP. There's no hard +30% limit, just a +30% baseline before professional abilities. Thus:

Any adventurer can improve his attributes and secondary characteristics to their racial maxima. The ability to exceed such a limit makes for a simple but wonderful power-up! This has no intrinsic cost beyond that of the scores. As noted under Professional Power-Ups (p. 17), being a member of the right profession amounts to an Unusual Background that justifies this.

This is extremely important.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Kromm

That's before one adds in specific occupational templates, though, which uniformly violate the FP limit for casters, martial artists, and others who use FP. There's no hard +30% limit, just a +30% baseline before professional abilities. Thus:

Any adventurer can improve his attributes and secondary characteristics to their racial maxima. The ability to exceed such a limit makes for a simple but wonderful power-up! This has no intrinsic cost beyond that of the scores. As noted under Professional Power-Ups (p. 17), being a member of the right profession amounts to an Unusual Background that justifies this.

This is extremely important.

I know, and for example, Knights and Barbarians can purchase HP up to 1.5x ST. No profession provides increased or removes FP caps, not even Martial Artists, that don't even get Energy Reserve (Chi) to help with the Power Blows.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Kromm

and all elves can add an extra three levels of Magery

In the books, it says that all elves (even non-mages) can buy Magery 3. How does this translate to elf wizards adding an extra 3 levels of Magery on top of Magery 6? I really wish the books were more clear about this sort of thing. As GM, I have no problem saying "this is how I'm ruling it, deal," but my players are happier when I say "just look on page x and see why you can't do y."

I'm currently running a 350-ish point DF game (started at 250 but the PCs have advanced a bit). I haven't had to apply a skill cap yet, but that's mainly because the Knight has deemed it necessary to raise Will and Per (he's sick of being mind controlled/snuck up on all the time), and the casters have been buying ER like crazy.

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

I know, and for example, Knights and Barbarians can purchase HP up to 1.5x ST. No profession provides increased or removes FP caps, not even Martial Artists, that don't even get Energy Reserve (Chi) to help with the Power Blows.

The Wizard template has FP14 and can buy FP+1 to +10. That gives a possible FP max of 24, which exceeds +30% above the template HT11.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Gnome

In the books, it says that all elves (even non-mages) can buy Magery 3. How does this translate to elf wizards adding an extra 3 levels of Magery on top of Magery 6?

It's a general rule: You buy your racial abilities and then add your professional ones. They aren't exclusive; they expressly "stack." Somebody who has a racial Magery M and can add up to +N to Magery from his job template doesn't stop at M or N, but at M+N.

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by Kromm

It's a general rule: You buy your racial abilities and then add your professional ones. They aren't exclusive; they expressly "stack." Somebody who has a racial Magery M and can add up to +N to Magery from his job template doesn't stop at M or N, but at M+N.

Specifically, DF3.p4: "Overlap When something appears on a racial template and a character template, the simplest approach is to assume that the two traits “stack” at full cost."

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

No profession provides increased or removes FP caps

This is incorrect. Not all such cap removals are worded as power-ups to be bought after character creation. From DF 1:

• Bard (p. 5): HT 11, FP 11, option to buy up to FP +8 (+73%).
• Cleric (p. 6): HT 12, FP 12, option to buy up to FP +6 (+50%).
• Druid (p. 7): HT 13, FP 13, option to buy up to FP +6 (+46%).
• Martial Artist (p. 9): HT 12, FP 12, option to buy up to FP +6 (+50%).
• Wizard (p. 13): HT 11, FP 14, option to buy up to FP +10 (+118%).

Other templates work similarly (demonologist and shaman have +42%, necromancer has +50%, mentalist has +92%, elementalist has +108%, etc.). Cap-raising is only called out as an explicit power-up when it's above and beyond what's on the template, as with the barbarian and knight's HP limit. Everything on your template is automatically available as a power-up without requiring a special comment! And indeed, many professions offer above-usual FP allowances.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by SCAR

Specifically, DF3.p4: "Overlap When something appears on a racial template and a character template, the simplest approach is to assume that the two traits “stack” at full cost."

Yes, the Overlap rule on p. 4 of DF 3 is the clearest specific statement of this principle in DF, although it remains generally true in GURPS.

[Anders]

There is a difference when you're making a barbarian with final SM 0 or lower. But that's the only thing I can come up with ATM.

[Kromm]

One of the most fundamental principles in GURPS is that all rules are general and apply everywhere, even when implied rather than express; e.g., the fact that traits on racial and character templates "stack." Another is that special cases always trump general rules; e.g., the fact that specific racial and character templates can override the general limits on secondary characteristics. This thinking applies to design principles as well as rules; for instance, GURPS is by design reality-checked and balanced, but DF is explicitly a power fantasy, and grants permission to stack up unrealistic, unbalanced bonuses and levels of ability.