Who actually uses the multiplicative Modifiers from Powers?

[Kuu]

Originally Posted by smurf

No I do not use them as they tend to make cost spiral upwards.

Really? I'm having trouble finding a good example.

For example, take Burning Attack 100d (costs 10 FP, -50%; no active defense allowed, +300%; no die roll required, +100%). With multiplicative modifiers, it would cost 1250 points. With additive modifiers, it would cost 2250 points - almost double that of the multiplicative modifier.

Another one is Burning Attack 100d (2-yard radius, +50%; costs 10 FP, -50%). With MM, it would cost 375 points. With AM, it would cost 500 points.

Lastly, there's Burning Attack 100d (costs 10 FP, -50%). Both AM and MM cost 250 points.

Could you provide an example of an advantage that increases in cost by using multiplicative modifiers?

[Darekun]

Originally Posted by Kuu

Could you provide an example of an advantage that increases in cost by using multiplicative modifiers?

While multiplicative modifiers does cause the prices of things built "efficiently" under additive modifiers to spiral upwards, I think Multiplicative Modifiers can only increase cost when the -80% limit is reached. For example:

Burning Attack 100d(Costs FP: 10/use(-50%), Only Vs Psis(-50%), Affects Insubstantial(+20%))

Under additive modifiers, this is 100 points. Under Multiplicative Modifiers, this is 120 points. Add a set of gadget lims and some more enhancements, and the difference will increase.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

I use Multiplicative Modifiers in pretty much any game where I'm going to need Powers sitting next to my computer. It's working great for my Shadowrun conversion, where most abilities have a ton of Enhancements but can be completely nerfed by relatively low-value Limitations, usually right there in the mandatory Power Mod. I've done the costs out both ways because I'm a masochist like that, and in nearly all cases they are lower (not that I care about that - It's the fair discount for having your stuff taken away sometimes that appeals to me).

The only downside as I see it is that the vast majority of the people in my group see it as extra work. If I wasn't doing all the math for them up front, they would probably vote against using Multiplicative Modifiers.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by smurf

No I do not use them as they tend to make cost spiral upwards.

Out of interest, you used a 1500pt build template with multiplicative mods, what would it be with out them. I think it may be down to the 1000 mark. Also, some MM is ok, it's when it is used on everything that it is a problem.

Multiplicative Modifiers almost always guarantees that your abilities will cost less than they do in the base system, not more.

If an ability has only limitations or only enhancements, it'll cost the same. If an ability has any amount of limitations less than -80% as well as some enhancements, it will cost less. It's only if an ability has more limitations than enhancements OR more than +500% in both enhancements and limitations that an ability may cost more.

A 'fix' to make it so that Multiplicative Modifiers works with >-100% limitations is to make it so you subtract any amount greater than -80% in limitations from the amount of enhancements - basically additive modifiers while an ability has >-100% in limitations until it gets down to -80%, then -80% thereafter.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Langy

Multiplicative Modifiers almost always guarantees that your abilities will cost less than they do in the base system, not more.

If an ability has only limitations or only enhancements, it'll cost the same. If an ability has any amount of limitations less than -80% as well as some enhancements, it will cost less. It's only if an ability has more limitations than enhancements OR more than +500% in both enhancements and limitations that an ability may cost more.

once a single enhancement is on it it will NEVER get back down to 20% of the base cost under under Multiplicative Modifiers.

so it doesn't take more limitations then enhancments for it to happen.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

once a single enhancement is on it it will NEVER get back down to 20% of the base cost under under Multiplicative Modifiers.

so it doesn't take more limitations then enhancments for it to happen.

Er, yes it does.

You could have a +10% enhancement - you'd need -90% in limitations in order to get that down to 20% of base cost. 90% is significantly greater than 10%.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Langy

Er, yes it does.

You could have a +10% enhancement - you'd need -90% in limitations in order to get that down to 20% of base cost. 90% is significantly greater than 10%.

Umm the -80% Cap counts on multiplicative as well. So you're wrong.

100 Base + 10% = 110 - 80% limitation is [22] not 20.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Umm the -80% Cap counts on multiplicative as well. So you're wrong.

100 Base + 10% = 110 - 80% limitation is [22] not 20.

I was talking about regular additive modifiers. In order to get an ability with a +10% modifier down to 20% of its base cost, you need to stack on -90% in limitations.

You said that you don't need more limitations than enhancements in order to get an ability down to 20% of base cost. That's simply not true.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by Langy

I was talking about regular additive modifiers. In order to get an ability with a +10% modifier down to 20% of its base cost, you need to stack on -90% in limitations.

You said that you don't need more limitations than enhancements in order to get an ability down to 20% of base cost. That's simply not true.

You could at lease read what he was quoting. It's fairly obvious he was talking about multiplicative.

Originally Posted by roguebfl

once a single enhancement is on it it will NEVER get back down to 20% of the base cost under under Multiplicative Modifiers.

so it doesn't take more limitations then enhancments for it to happen.

Where was he talking about getting it down to 20% of base cost? He was talking about comparing costs in general.

Originally Posted by Langy

Multiplicative Modifiers almost always guarantees that your abilities will cost less than they do in the base system, not more.

If an ability has only limitations or only enhancements, it'll cost the same. If an ability has any amount of limitations less than -80% as well as some enhancements, it will cost less. It's only if an ability has more limitations than enhancements OR more than +500% in both enhancements and limitations that an ability may cost more.

This isn't entirely clear, since you don't explain what you mean by more or why you're suddenly combining enhancement and limitation costs. So, to clarify you're saying:

If you have +X% in enhancements and -Y% in limitations, then so long as Y is less than 80 then the multiplicative version will be cheaper. However, if Y is greater than 80 then it depends on the value of X as to which will be cheaper.

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by Darekun

While multiplicative modifiers does cause the prices of things built "efficiently" under additive modifiers to spiral upwards, I think Multiplicative Modifiers can only increase cost when the -80% limit is reached.

So what's your difference between multiplicative modifiers and Multiplicative Modifiers? I use them interchangeably.