Damage Resistance with Force Field enhancement: What gets through?

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by Christian

Oh and I of course forgot the "pressure from a stone laying on you".

Pressure support is the correct advantage for pressure coming from gases or liquids surrounding you. But what's with a stone that falls on you (that's basic DR), AND then lays on you for some time? Doesn't it just give basic crushing damage while crushing you slowly to death? Then a forcefield should help, as would even a chainmail (though with limited DR). But you could also say "pressure requires pressure support", and then a forcefield wouldn't help.

Pressure Support makes no mention of types of things, merely that it prevents uniform external pressure from crushing you. This makes you immune to any sort of damage so long as the source of the pressure is within your Pressure Support limit. If the pressure is outside your limit then the GM should assess damage, probably as a form of Choking/Strangle. The ST of the attacker should be based on the HP of the surroundings, and you should apply large area injury. Of course, even if you have sufficient DR you still have the issue of breathing....

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Christian

At the moment we face the significant problem, that several members of our adventuring team do have a focefield ... and we are heading into an area where those grey areas DDS named could be a problem. Not the heat, not the water pressure, but those things that are neither answered by the RAW nor till now here.

They are answered by the RAW in that if you don't buy it you don't get it.

Originally Posted by Christian

I think we all agree, that what Kromm said regulates 95% of the cases: straightforeward damage independent of source is stopped/reduced.

AFAIK, that, along with GM common sense regulates 100% of the cases, I've had forcefields in my games for ages and haven't had any issues.

Originally Posted by Christian

Basically it's questions concerning touch, size and time.

If you don't buy limitations on it, it doesn't mess up your touch or size and the time is just like with any other DR.

Originally Posted by Christian

Forcefield states that attacks requiring touch, will only affect you, if they overcome your forcefield. Dierk asked specifially for the "handshake of death", which is out if you go by that sentence only. But which is in again, if you follow the train of thought, that an accepted handshake is already "inside" the forcefield.

The forcefield doesn't extend into the person whose hand you're shaking unless you buy it as an aura type damage attack, it just protects normally.

The RAW is simply saying that follow-up attacks have to penetrate first, so as an example if you shake hands with someone with Body of Lightning or Body of Fire your DR protects normally, but with Shocking Touch and Deathtouch the DR does not protect at all just like any other DR.

Originally Posted by Christian

Now someone could say: "I didn't buy the limitation that I can be hurt if I let someone inside voluntarily" ... and he would be right. On the other hand, Forcefield does have the feature that you can "partly" switch it, to be able to eat, go for the bushes ... and such.

No you can't "partially" switch it off unless you buy the enhancement for it, forcefields have no impact on eating or disposing of wastes, or any other bodily function.
If you want them to have those impacts then you have to take them on as limitations and enhancements.

Originally Posted by Christian

Second mosquitos: the Forcefield text states that it protects ALL your body. Which would rule the mosquito bite out (think magical mosquitos, and it is a true advantage), as they probably can't penetrate your forcefield. BUT: B461 about swarm attacks clearly states that ordinary clothing protects against insects for 2 seconds, low tech armor for 5 seconds, and only special clothing indefinitely. Now one could say that a forcefield surrounding your body doesn't have cracks and slits where the insects can crawl in, so it could count as special clothing here. Basically this would just apply the "larger swarm animals have to overcome the DR" rule to the smaller insects by taking into account the fines mesh of the forcefield. But how fine is that mesh? When would this turn into a "hijacked" Sealed advantage?

This one is specifically a situational GM call based upon his individual setting and the thematic description of the forcefield effect in his own world.

Having the forcefield mostly act much like a "wetsuit or bee-keeper's suit" isn't unbalanced, but the swarm can still crawl inside your eyes, ears, mouth, nose and other orifices as normal since you don't have Sealed.

It would also never become a "hijacked" Sealed advantage unless the GM and players start treating it as such, at which point the GM would simply require that the PCs pay the cost for Sealed the second that it starts acting like it.

Originally Posted by Christian

This is also exactly the point where spores come into play. Most seem to agree that they can invade your body via the breath. But there is no clear cut agreement if they can also get to you if they require touch. But if mosquitos do get in ... then spores definitely also get in ... and thereby can apply their touch based damage ... which would be against specific rules by the forcefield modification (needs to overcome DR).

This is straightforward, there is no confusion there at all, spores are either Respiratory Agents, or Area Effect Blood Agents, DR does not protect, ever.
Buy Sealed if you want it to.

Originally Posted by Christian

And last but not least someone might come up with the idea to "generalize" the whole" slow and steady overcoming". Basically Dierks Dune-shield. The vampire that takes time to not overcome DR, but to slowly get through the forcefield so he can apply touch. But wouldn't that call for a limitation?

Resistance only to high speed attacks in a combat second, like in Dune, is clearly a limitation.

For resistance to the slow pressure of something, like a Vampiric Bite or a surgeon's scalpel when applied slowly out of combat, how the DR should have an effect is again specifically a situational GM call based upon the setting and the thematic description of the forcefield effect in his own world.
The GM may require additional powers and enhancements to fit his vision as needed.

Personally though, in most settings, I'd say a character with a forcefield DR power could do a Power Block, Powers p.168, and on a success I'd say that the DR protects normally, otherwise on a failure, or if the character doesn't get to, or chooses not to Power Block then the DR has no effect.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Christian

Forcefield states that attacks requiring touch, will only affect you, if they overcome your forcefield. Dierk asked specifially for the "handshake of death", which is out if you go by that sentence only. But which is in again, if you follow the train of thought, that an accepted handshake is already "inside" the forcefield.

Now someone could say: "I didn't buy the limitation that I can be hurt if I let someone inside voluntarily" ... and he would be right. On the other hand, Forcefield does have the feature that you can "partly" switch it, to be able to eat, go for the bushes ... and such.

Second mosquitos: the Forcefield text states that it protects ALL your body. Which would rule the mosquito bite out (think magical mosquitos, and it is a true advantage), as they probably can't penetrate your forcefield. BUT: B461 about swarm attacks clearly states that ordinary clothing protects against insects for 2 seconds, low tech armor for 5 seconds, and only special clothing indefinitely. Now one could say that a forcefield surrounding your body doesn't have cracks and slits where the insects can crawl in, so it could count as special clothing here. Basically this would just apply the "larger swarm animals have to overcome the DR" rule to the smaller insects by taking into account the fines mesh of the forcefield. But how fine is that mesh? When would this turn into a "hijacked" Sealed advantage?

This is also exactly the point where spores come into play. Most seem to agree that they can invade your body via the breath. But there is no clear cut agreement if they can also get to you if they require touch. But if mosquitos do get in ... then spores definitely also get in ... and thereby can apply their touch based damage ... which would be against specific rules by the forcefield modification (needs to overcome DR).

And last but not least someone might come up with the idea to "generalize" the whole" slow and steady overcoming". Basically Dierks Dune-shield. The vampire that takes time to not overcome DR, but to slowly get through the forcefield so he can apply touch. But wouldn't that call for a limitation?

None of these get through DR unless they get through DR or are breathed in, including the Contact Agents. Especially not the mosquitoes - how is their bite not a very weak carrier attack? - and definitely not the 'slow and steady' thing unless there's a specific limitation applied to make things like the shields in Dune.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Christian

Oh and I of course forgot the "pressure from a stone laying on you".

Pressure support is the correct advantage for pressure coming from gases or liquids surrounding you. But what's with a stone that falls on you (that's basic DR), AND then lays on you for some time? Doesn't it just give basic crushing damage while crushing you slowly to death? Then a forcefield should help, as would even a chainmail (though with limited DR). But you could also say "pressure requires pressure support", and then a forcefield wouldn't help.

Direct HP damage from an outside source is stopped by DR. However, for a stone lying on a person and crushing them, you might use the rules for grappling and constriction attacks rather than damage dice for collision, and since chain is implicitly Flexible, it may not apply against that Quick Contest at all. Since Flexible is disallowed with Force Field, however, the force field would.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

The RAW is simply saying that follow-up attacks have to penetrate first, so as an example if you shake hands with someone with Body of Lightning or Body of Fire your DR protects normally, but with Shocking Touch and Deathtouch the DR does not protect at all just like any other DR.

Actually, DR does help against Afflictions that aren't also Maledictions or Respiratory Agents or Sense-Based, as noted earlier in this thread. It adds to the resistance roll. A carrier does need to get through DR for the Follow-Up to ignore it as well, and unless it's a tiny force field, I doubt a handshake will do enough damage.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Actually, DR does help against Afflictions that aren't also Maledictions or Respiratory Agents or Sense-Based, as noted earlier in this thread. It adds to the resistance roll. A carrier does need to get through DR for the Follow-Up to ignore it as well, and unless it's a tiny force field, I doubt a handshake will do enough damage.

That's based on the attack being an Affliction which has a clear limitation vs DR, if the carrier is a Respiratory Agent or Area Effect Blood Agent, like I said, then DR has no effect.

hocking Touch and Deathtouch are already built as bypassing DR, unless you buy Cosmic DR which is built to stop those attacks, they bypass DR, by definition.

In the same way a swarm can be considered an area effect Blood Agent, in which case DR doesn't protect at all.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

That's based on the attack being an Affliction which has a clear limitation vs DR, if the carrier is a Respiratory Agent or Area Effect Blood Agent, like I said, then DR has no effect.

hocking Touch and Deathtouch are already built as bypassing DR, unless you buy Cosmic DR which is built to stop those attacks, they bypass DR, by definition.

In the same way a swarm can be considered an area effect Blood Agent, in which case DR doesn't protect at all.

A swarm is composed of individual beasties, though. Each individual mosquito has a proboscis that needs to penetrate skin. If it wouldn't get through, say, steelhard skin, then putting the Force Field enhancement on your DR doesn't make it worse. In fact, any DR without the Tough Skin limitation or that's not built with Gadget lims to make it into armor should defend against these types of attacks unless the swarm gets into the target's eyes (or, I suppose, inside the mouth, nose, etc.).

And yes, Deathtouch and Shocking Touch are built to bypass DR, but the Force Field enhancement specifically notes that 'touch' attacks need to get past the Force Field DR:

Effects that rely on touch (such as many magic spells) only affect you if carried by an attack that does enough damage to pierce your DR.

Most wizards' bare hands are unlikely to do so.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

A swarm is composed of individual beasties, though. Each individual mosquito has a proboscis that needs to penetrate skin. If it wouldn't get through, say, steelhard skin, then putting the Force Field enhancement on your DR doesn't make it worse. In fact, any DR without the Tough Skin limitation or that's not built with Gadget lims to make it into armor should defend against these types of attacks unless the swarm gets into the target's eyes (or, I suppose, inside the mouth, nose, etc.).

That's what I'm saying, if the swarm can get into your eyes, nose, mouth, ears and other orifices, then it's in effect an Area Effect Blood Agent.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

And yes, Deathtouch and Shocking Touch are built to bypass DR, but the Force Field enhancement specifically notes that 'touch' attacks need to get past the Force Field DR:

Most wizards' bare hands are unlikely to do so.

Absolutely not, DR does not protect against Deathtouch and Shocking Touch, the forcefield enhancement does not change that.

If that's what's causing the disconnect you can go ask Kromm and then email Vicky to have the answer posted to the FAQ.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

That's what I'm saying, if the swarm can get into your eyes, nose, mouth, ears and other orifices, then it's in effect an Area Effect Blood Agent.



Absolutely not, DR does not protect against Deathtouch and Shocking Touch, the forcefield enhancement does not change that.

If that's what's causing the disconnect you can go ask Kromm and then email Vicky to have the answer posted to the FAQ.

I repeat:

Effects that rely on touch (such as many magic spells) only affect you if carried by an attack that does enough damage to pierce your DR.

That's by RAW. Both Deathtouch and Shocking Touch rely on touch, therefore the passage in Characters would seem to apply. If it doesn't apply against touch spells that actually have 'touch' in their names, that strikes me as not just a FAQ entry, but a good candidate for errata on Basic.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

I repeat:

Effects that rely on touch (such as many magic spells) only affect you if carried by an attack that does enough damage to pierce your DR.

That's by RAW. Both Deathtouch and Shocking Touch rely on touch, therefore the passage in Characters would seem to apply. If it doesn't apply against touch spells that actually have 'touch' in their names, that strikes me as not just a FAQ entry, but a good candidate for errata on Basic.

No, touching the forcefield counts as touching the target for those spells.

Shocking Touch and Deathtouch are Armor Penetrating spells, they have a magic penetration modifier, like Sense Based with the Sense being Magic, they are not Afflictions.

Deathtouch and Shocking Touch don't require you to touch the person under their normal armor either, you just need to make contact with their armor, DR does not protect, hit location is irrelevant, you need a setting specific Magic Protected Sense to an attack with such a Magic penetration modifier, or Cosmic DR...