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Old 12-03-2011, 09:43 AM   #31
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Jamming / Misleading / Messing with / etc. enemy Empathy?

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Originally Posted by Icelander;1287521[QUOTE
]If any PC has it, any plot that relies on uncertainty about the true motives and personality of someone else for any part of its dramatic impact, i.e. pretty much any plot with any layer of complexity, is short-circuited. Falls flat. Doesn't work.
You know if the empathy roll fails, the GM lies. And knowing someone isn't telling you the truth as they think it to be, doesn't tell you what the truth is.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:07 AM   #32
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Jamming / Misleading / Messing with / etc. enemy Empathy?

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Someone with Empathy and a decent IQ would have known beyond reasonable doubt whether he was a good guy or bad guy if it worked like Kromm had it working. That's anti-fun and a trait that worked like that would need careful labelling and advice on using it (or not), like Unfazable for horror games.
I don't think the data should be absolutely precise. That would likely be Mind Reading.Knowing someone is a swindler is not the same as knowing the specific details of a given instance of fraud.
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You know if the empathy roll fails, the GM lies. And knowing someone isn't telling you the truth as they think it to be, doesn't tell you what the truth is.
That is another totally brutal disadvantage of relying on Empathy (and, by extension, on Body Language): in effect, any failure is a crit.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:28 PM   #33
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Resisting / Misleading / etc. enemy Empathy? (Hard to Read?)

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Someone with Empathy and a decent IQ would have known beyond reasonable doubt whether he was a good guy or bad guy if it worked like Kromm had it working.
Well no. They wouldn't. Their initial read would show spiteful and somewhat paranoid. The lie detection ability wouldn't matter because Snape doesn't go around saying things like, "I used to be a Death Eater but now I am a Reformed Character." Instead he goes around saying things like "I have spent a very long time deceiving a great wizard. Only a fool would deny that Dumbledore is a great wizard.". It's almost as if he's aware that he's in a world where people might have truth detection abilities.
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Old 12-04-2011, 01:25 PM   #34
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Resisting / Misleading / etc. enemy Empathy? (Hard to Read?)

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Well no. They wouldn't. Their initial read would show spiteful and somewhat paranoid. The lie detection ability wouldn't matter because Snape doesn't go around saying things like, "I used to be a Death Eater but now I am a Reformed Character." Instead he goes around saying things like "I have spent a very long time deceiving a great wizard. Only a fool would deny that Dumbledore is a great wizard.". It's almost as if he's aware that he's in a world where people might have truth detection abilities.
Truth detection in Harry Potter is resistable. I was specifically pointing out that Empathy, the way Kromm describes it in vicky's post, would invalidate nearly all stories.

Empathy that would pin-point Cypher as a traitor the moment he made his deal would also serve to make the tension about Snape's true motives pointless.

In my games, the initial read would indeed be much as you describe. But that's not what vicky's quoted post was talking about.
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Old 12-04-2011, 01:27 PM   #35
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Resisting / Misleading / etc. enemy Empathy? (Hard to Read?)

From a game crunch point of view, a supernatural background perk would render Empathy useless. Of course that means the character would be subject to a different brand of Empathy like Spirit Empathy.
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Old 12-04-2011, 01:43 PM   #36
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Resisting / Misleading / etc. enemy Empathy? (Hard to Read?)

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Truth detection in Harry Potter is resistable. I was specifically pointing out that Empathy, the way Kromm describes it in vicky's post, would invalidate nearly all stories.
First, it was NDD who quoted the post. Second, that post is so last year (2010), and thus pre-dates the Social Engineering playtest.
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Old 12-05-2011, 08:43 AM   #37
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Resisting / Misleading / etc. enemy Empathy? (Hard to Read?)

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Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker View Post
From a game crunch point of view, a supernatural background perk would render Empathy useless. Of course that means the character would be subject to a different brand of Empathy like Spirit Empathy.
Oh, I once played a character who was technically a (solidified) Spirit, thus immune to human Empathy. Interestingly, AIs don't have their own category for Empathy. Hilarity ensues.
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Old 12-07-2011, 04:32 AM   #38
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Resisting / Misleading / etc. enemy Empathy? (Hard to Read?)

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Empathy that would pin-point Cypher as a traitor the moment he made his deal would also serve to make the tension about Snape's true motives pointless.
An example of mystery plots in a setting where Body Language is treated as (typically) completely irresistible* skill, would be Lie to Me / the Lightman Group. Even though the suspects usually can't do anything about being checked by Body Language (yes, sometimes the protagonists fail rolls, but IIRC only one antagonist was given the 'perk' to resist it with Acting).

* == AFAIK the series was made to somewhat hype up P'Ekman's studies. The concept was still interesting, though the execution got monotonous eventually.
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Old 12-07-2011, 08:46 AM   #39
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Resisting / Misleading / etc. enemy Empathy? (Hard to Read?)

Maybe you've solved your original problem to your satisfaction already, but the Charisma entry in GURPS Space (p. 219) suggests that if there are some people who are not "vulnerable" to Empathy that this should be indicated as a limitation on everybody's Empathy, not as an advantage of the people not vulnerable.
"The Game Master must decide in advance if advantages like Charisma and Empathy work on different species. ... If the GM decides that Charisma and Empathy don’t affect aliens, reduce the point value by applying the limitation “Humans Only,” worth -20%."
Then, having an "alien" mind might simply be a feature if Empathy doesn't work in either direction (the benefit of not being vulnerable to human Empathy is offset by the drawback of not being able to use Empathy on the presumably dominant species in the setting).
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Old 12-07-2011, 05:28 PM   #40
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Jamming / Misleading / Messing with / etc. enemy Empathy?

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
If any PC has it, any plot that relies on uncertainty about the true motives and personality of someone else for any part of its dramatic impact, i.e. pretty much any plot with any layer of complexity, is short-circuited.
Empathy only even gets the chance to short-circuit such a plot if the PC with empathy comes within touching distance of the deceiver. It's far from impossible to have a plot that involves such deception where that kind of proximity is unlikely until after the deception has progressed far enough that even with the PCs piercing it, interesting adventure is afoot.
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