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Old 06-21-2011, 07:02 AM   #31
gjc8
 
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Originally Posted by combatmedic View Post
You just agreed with me, dude. :)
I have argued that some titles are linked with jobs, in GURPS terms. Others are just courtesy rank. Some are military , religious, or administrative rank- and also linked to a job. Some are just part of status.
I agree with your point, I just disagree about which titles are which. Warden of the XXXX are just (Courtesy) Rank, while managing a Great House is a job.

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Originally Posted by combatmedic
How much he is paid as Master of Coin is never stated. The job may or may not come with a formal salary, but it probably has lucrative perks. The brothels are an independent source of money.
I strongly suspect that Hand of the King could come with similar perks, if the person who held the title were inclined to take them. But Honesty prevents Ned from exploiting his position for personal gain, even though King's Landing is corrupt enough that it's expected.
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:15 AM   #32
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I agree with your point, I just disagree about which titles are which. Warden of the XXXX are just (Courtesy) Rank, while managing a Great House is a job.


I strongly suspect that Hand of the King could come with similar perks, if the person who held the title were inclined to take them. But Honesty prevents Ned from exploiting his position for personal gain, even though King's Landing is corrupt enough that it's expected.


Warden may be just courtesy rank, yeah, We really don't know much about what it really entails.


Keep in mind that in my view of how this stuff works, there's absolutely no reason why one can't have one title as part of Status or Rank, another title just a courtesy rank, great personal Wealth, another source of Independent Income, and the job (you don't pay character points for this) of running a Great House.

Note that jobs in GURPS are often tied to wealth and status. They may also come with legal enforcment powers.
A job isn't something that you pay CPs for, but you may have to pay CPs to qualify for it (wealth, status, skills, special advantages that come with the job, etc).

Ned definitely could have exploited the heck out of his new job, had he been a less honorable man.

Last edited by combatmedic; 06-21-2011 at 07:20 AM.
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:35 AM   #33
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Warden may be just courtesy rank, yeah, We really don't know much about what it really entails.
Doesn't Ned say that it's an empty honor during peacetime? In the context of deciding whether Robert Arryn should inherit the title from Jon, even though he's still a child.

And during civil war, armies line up according to money, personal loyalty, or political convenience (as demonstrated later in the series), regardless of who the Wardens are. So it would only matter in the event of invasion by an outside force, which hasn't happened since kingdoms were unified by the Targaryens.
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:47 AM   #34
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Doesn't Ned say that it's an empty honor during peacetime? In the context of deciding whether Robert Arryn should inherit the title from Jon, even though he's still a child.

And during civil war, armies line up according to money, personal loyalty, or political convenience (as demonstrated later in the series), regardless of who the Wardens are. So it would only matter in the event of invasion by an outside force, which hasn't happened since kingdoms were unified by the Targaryens.
That may be so. I'd have to look further into it. Perhaps it was a real job at one time, like Hand of the King, and is now mostly just an honorary title?

Hand is definitely a job. Master of Coin, Master of Ships, etc are jobs. These jobs carry titles that may be reflected by ranks, status, and legal enforcment powers. Job rolls would certainly be required (using politics, administration, etc).

Last edited by combatmedic; 06-21-2011 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 06-21-2011, 08:22 AM   #35
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My Take on aGoT status


8 King of Westeros
7 Great Khal, Ruler of major Citystate/Freecity, Hand of the King(disputable)
6 Warden of <insert here Direction> (Starks, Lannisters, Aeryn and Tyrell),
Major Khal, Ruler of a minor citystate
5 High Septon, Lord of a major house(Tully, Greyjoy, Martell), Khal
4 Lords of major Bannerhouse( Frey, Boltons), minor Khal, Member of the
small Concil (if not otherwise higher in Status)
3 Lords of an avarage Bannerhouse ( Umber, Karstark, Clegane),
great maester
2 Landed Knights (Mormont, Blackwater, Baelish)
1 Hedge Knights, Maester, Guild Masters, Septons
0 Smallfolk, Men of the Knight Watch
-1 Unfree/poor Smallfolk, Clans of the Moon
-2 Whores,
-3 Slaves
-4 Outlaws, Wildlings

Members of Great Houses have the Lordsstatus -1

In my Oppinion any Stark gets the Lannisters as enemy after Ned gives Cersei a ultimatum, you could argue that the Starks are actually at war with the Lannisters who simply protect there interests ... but they are Enemys as soon as Cat thinks Tyrion tried to kill Bran.
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Old 06-21-2011, 10:31 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by SonofJohn View Post
8 King of Westeros
7 Great Khal, Ruler of major Citystate/Freecity, Hand of the King(disputable)
6 Warden of <insert here Direction> (Starks, Lannisters, Aeryn and Tyrell),
Major Khal, Ruler of a minor citystate
5 High Septon, Lord of a major house(Tully, Greyjoy, Martell), Khal
4 Lords of major Bannerhouse( Frey, Boltons), minor Khal, Member of the
small Concil (if not otherwise higher in Status)
3 Lords of an avarage Bannerhouse ( Umber, Karstark, Clegane),
great maester
2 Landed Knights (Mormont, Blackwater, Baelish)
1 Hedge Knights, Maester, Guild Masters, Septons
0 Smallfolk, Men of the Knight Watch
-1 Unfree/poor Smallfolk, Clans of the Moon
-2 Whores,
-3 Slaves
-4 Outlaws, Wildlings
8 is probably right for the king.

Pre-unification, the kings of 7 kingdoms should would be status 7. How you treat the Status of disputed claimants is unclear, but if Stannis gets Status 8, then Robb, Balon Grey, and Euron Greyjoy would be Status 7 while claiming their regional thrones. Arguably, Mance Rayder should also go here.

I'd go ahead and put the heads of the Great Houses at Status 6. They are, after all, the heirs of kings.

Status 5 would be important nobles that are still below the Great Houses, like Frey and Redwyne.

Status 4 would be "average" nobles, who are not especially powerful, but have enough land, etc, to be powerful.

Status 3 is landed knights and the least wealthy and powerful noblemen (Gregor Clegane falls here, Petyr Baelish would if he only had his lands).

Status 2 is landless knights, including both hedge knights and those directly in service to a noble. Note, though, that you have to be able to afford the cost of living to claim most of the benefits of Status, so many hedge knights will effectively be somewhat lower. Guilds aren't as important in Westeros as some fantasy settings, but guild masters should probably still qualify for this, rather than 1.

On the low end, Statuses below -2 don't exist in 4e; slaves and outlaws would have Social Stigma. Wildlings in particular would have a status based on their standing in wildling society (so Mance Rayder is high) but Social Stigma from the perspective of most of Westerosi society. There don't seem to be many serfs or slaves in Westeros, so most of the poor would be status -1 (including prostitutes, though they may have Social Stigma, too).

Various positions, like the membership on the Small Council, would grant Rank, which gives a certain degree of free Status, rather than a specific status. Hand of the King is probably Rank 8, Small Council membership 7. So Littlefinger has "natural" Status 3, +2 from his Rank as a member of the small council. If the Hand is status 4+ (they usually are), the +3 from that Rank would push them up to Status 7. If the hand starts lower, they may not: Aerys' final Hand was probably Status 2 (as a master alchemist), so would be Status 5. The Warden positions grant Rank or Courtesy Rank 6.
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Old 06-21-2011, 01:04 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by combatmedic View Post
You just agreed with me, dude. :)
I have argued that some titles are linked with jobs, in GURPS terms. Others are just courtesy rank. Some are military , religious, or administrative rank- and also linked to a job. Some are just part of status.
Just because something is a Job does not mean it doesn't come with Status or Rank. In fact, some jobs specifically do come with Status/Rank, such as 'King' or 'General' or even 'Beat Cop', and you need to pay for that stuff.

Thus, this whole argument that Warden of the North, Master of Coin, etc are jobs doesn't matter one bit. Jobs aren't advantages in GURPS, and any advantages a job gives you you need to pay for.
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Old 06-21-2011, 01:05 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by combatmedic View Post
Warden may be just courtesy rank, yeah, We really don't know much about what it really entails.


Keep in mind that in my view of how this stuff works, there's absolutely no reason why one can't have one title as part of Status or Rank, another title just a courtesy rank, great personal Wealth, another source of Independent Income, and the job (you don't pay character points for this) of running a Great House.

Note that jobs in GURPS are often tied to wealth and status. They may also come with legal enforcment powers.
A job isn't something that you pay CPs for, but you may have to pay CPs to qualify for it (wealth, status, skills, special advantages that come with the job, etc)..
This is completely wrong. You need to pay for any advantages that a GURPS Job gives you. If you didn't, then police wouldn't have Legal Enforcement Powers, military officers wouldn't have Rank, etc.
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Old 06-21-2011, 03:10 PM   #39
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The Tyrells were never Kings and the Riverlands were never a kingdom of its own... so there would maybe another distinction ...

I have given Houses like Bolton or Frey some more status, because they rivaling the great houses in power and could become greater house if the respective greater house would some how fall. So i think there is some distinction inbetween greater houses and between Bannerhouses. So there are some of avarage status, above avarage status and below avarage status minor houses ...

Iam not sure if administrative Rank fits cause every noble has some deal of administrative purpose, its basicly the whole point in feudalism.
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Old 06-21-2011, 05:33 PM   #40
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So there are some of avarage status, above avarage status and below avarage status minor houses ...
More likely an issue of wealth really, with the higher status coming from the wealth.

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Iam not sure if administrative Rank fits cause every noble has some deal of administrative purpose, its basicly the whole point in feudalism.
Administrative rank does fit in well to represent this type of aristocracy, and I'm sure combatmedic will jump in soon to explain to us how there's no such thing as feudalism outside of modern revisionist propaganda. *grin*
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