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Old 11-18-2019, 10:48 AM   #1
BillK
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Default Rule Qs: Turrets, ENG OVR, Battlesuits

Three questions:

(1) According to the latest 6th Ed Ogre rules, if I place a Laster Turret in a Town hex, can it shoot out of that hex? (I'm thinking no, but I'm not sure.)

(2) When Vulcans/Combat Engineers overrun a Building with SPs, the rules say the damage is doubled. Normally, units are at 4 x their firepower in overruns against buildings (11.04.2). But 11.04.5 says that Vulcans and Combat Engineers do damage equal to 16 x their firepower. Now I'm pretty good at math, and it seems to me that this should say 8 x, not 16 x. Or is 11.04.5, when it talks about the "damage done during a building overrun", also taking into account a unit's being able to attack a building twice across multiple overrun rounds (per 11.04.2)?

(3) And finally a Battlesuit gamette question from memory: I always wondered whether drones were ground-movement only, whether they hovered just above the ground, or whether they used the "Jump +" chits just like full Battlesuits. Anyone know?
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Old 11-18-2019, 12:46 PM   #2
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Default Re: Rule Qs: Turrets, ENG OVR, Battlesuits

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillK View Post
Three questions:

(1) According to the latest 6th Ed Ogre rules, if I place a Laster Turret in a Town hex, can it shoot out of that hex? (I'm thinking no, but I'm not sure.)
Yes, you can. All ogre rules are based on what happens when entering a hex, not leaving it. While "If the line enters or crosses any forbidden terrain" is not entirely obvious, the intent is that the hex the turret is physically in is not included in that determination. This does warrant a FAQ, though.

Quote:
(2) When Vulcans/Combat Engineers overrun a Building with SPs, the rules say the damage is doubled. Normally, units are at 4 x their firepower in overruns against buildings (11.04.2). But 11.04.5 says that Vulcans and Combat Engineers do damage equal to 16 x their firepower. Now I'm pretty good at math, and it seems to me that this should say 8 x, not 16 x. Or is 11.04.5, when it talks about the "damage done during a building overrun", also taking into account a unit's being able to attack a building twice across multiple overrun rounds (per 11.04.2)?
It's a double/double. Buildings are normally attacked at 4x in an overrun (11.04.2), INF and Ogre weapons are doubled in an Overrun (8.02) which gets you 8x, and CENG/Vulcans do an additional 2x against structures (11.04.5) for a total of 16x.
Quote:
(3) And finally a Battlesuit gamette question from memory: I always wondered whether drones were ground-movement only, whether they hovered just above the ground, or whether they used the "Jump +" chits just like full Battlesuits. Anyone know?
Nothing in the Battlesuit rules clarifies if drones are ground or air, but 3.061 specifically states jump chits are applied to "man" counters (ie, "they show when a man is in the air, and how high he is"). It does not include drone counters.
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Old 11-18-2019, 01:50 PM   #3
BillK
 
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Default Re: Rule Qs: Turrets, ENG OVR, Battlesuits

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
Yes, you can. All ogre rules are based on what happens when entering a hex, not leaving it. While "If the line enters or crosses any forbidden terrain" is not entirely obvious, the intent is that the hex the turret is physically in is not included in that determination. This does warrant a FAQ, though.
I realized later I should have quoted the rule:

12.02: To determine Laser line of sight, place a straightedge between the centers of the Laser hex and the target hex. If the line enters or crosses any forbidden terrain, or runs along a line between two hexes of forbidden terrain, the Laser cannot fire.

What makes me suspicious is the LOS "from the center of the Laser hex" is blocked if it "crosses any forbidden terrain"--which, strictly speaking, it would if the Laser were in [the center of] a town hex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
It's a double/double. Buildings are normally attacked at 4x in an overrun (11.04.2), INF and Ogre weapons are doubled in an Overrun (8.02) which gets you 8x, and CENG/Vulcans do an additional 2x against structures (11.04.5) for a total of 16x.
Ah: I missed the INF/Ogre being doubled in OVRs. Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
Nothing in the Battlesuit rules clarifies if drones are ground or air, but 3.061 specifically states jump chits are applied to "man" counters (ie, "they show when a man is in the air, and how high he is"). It does not include drone counters.
I do notice that GURPS Ogre (p. 57) says drones are "airborne self-propelled robots". Interesting.

Thank you for your responses!

Last edited by BillK; 11-18-2019 at 01:57 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 11-18-2019, 02:56 PM   #4
offsides
 
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Default Re: Rule Qs: Turrets, ENG OVR, Battlesuits

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Originally Posted by BillK View Post
I realized later I should have quoted the rule:

12.02: To determine Laser line of sight, place a straightedge between the centers of the Laser hex and the target hex. If the line enters or crosses any forbidden terrain, or runs along a line between two hexes of forbidden terrain, the Laser cannot fire.

What makes me suspicious is the LOS "from the center of the Laser hex" is blocked if it "crosses any forbidden terrain"--which, strictly speaking, it would if the Laser were in [the center of] a town hex.
While I totally understand your suspicions, I believe this is a case of handwaving the situation to make it more playable and less technicality prone. While you're absolutely correct that a town hex should block LLOS for a laser turret placed inside the town hex based on the rules as written, doing so would completely negate the usefulness of placing a laser turret in a town hex in the first place. So the rule should probably really read as thus:

12.02: To determine Laser line of sight, place a straightedge between the centers of the Laser hex and the target hex. If the line enters or crosses any forbidden terrain outside the laser turret's hex, or runs along a line between two hexes of forbidden terrain, the Laser cannot fire.

The bold section is my addition, and both answers your question and eliminates a silly case of 'That will never work!'...
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Old 11-18-2019, 03:54 PM   #5
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Default Re: Rule Qs: Turrets, ENG OVR, Battlesuits

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Originally Posted by offsides View Post
12.02: To determine Laser line of sight, place a straightedge between the centers of the Laser hex and the target hex. If the line enters or crosses any forbidden terrain outside the laser turret's hex, or runs along a line between two hexes of forbidden terrain, the Laser cannot fire.
And that's the way these kinds of rules are usually written for wargames.

My biggest hesitancy was that a Laser Turret is not way up in the air (like a Laser Tower), and so to have 360 degree coverage from the center of an isolated Town hex, the Laser LLOS would have to have some devilish optics.

Anyway, I mostly wondered how it was meant to be played.
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Old 11-18-2019, 08:18 PM   #6
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Default Re: Rule Qs: Turrets, ENG OVR, Battlesuits

Two more related questions:

(4) Can Lasers check LLOS before firing? Or does the mere checking of LOS indicate an attempted firing, and thereby--clear or blocked--prevent it from trying to shoot at the target in a different hex during the same turn?

(5) In the scenario Casey Joneski (which I'm setting up to play, and hence all of my questions), does the train need to stop in the final hex 0413, or can it merely blast on through the hex (even if the ensuing hex has the railroad cut in it)?

Thanks!
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Old 11-18-2019, 10:46 PM   #7
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Default Re: Rule Qs: Turrets, ENG OVR, Battlesuits

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Originally Posted by BillK View Post
Two more related questions:

(4) Can Lasers check LLOS before firing? Or does the mere checking of LOS indicate an attempted firing, and thereby--clear or blocked--prevent it from trying to shoot at the target in a different hex during the same turn?
You can check to your heart's content. This isn't chess where "if you touch it, you have to move it." checking LOS is a natural way to establish if that's a valid target or not. If not, target something else. :-)

Quote:
(5) In the scenario Casey Joneski (which I'm setting up to play, and hence all of my questions), does the train need to stop in the final hex 0413, or can it merely blast on through the hex (even if the ensuing hex has the railroad cut in it)?
The key is in the wording "The defender wins if the train reaches hex S1-0413 and survives." With the rail ending in 0413, you have to be able to stop in the hex; otherwise, the train would be wrecked, which would not satisfy the "survives" part of the requirement.
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Old 11-18-2019, 11:10 PM   #8
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Default Re: Rule Qs: Turrets, ENG OVR, Battlesuits

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Originally Posted by BillK View Post
And that's the way these kinds of rules are usually written for wargames.

My biggest hesitancy was that a Laser Turret is not way up in the air (like a Laser Tower), and so to have 360 degree coverage from the center of an isolated Town hex, the Laser LLOS would have to have some devilish optics.

Anyway, I mostly wondered how it was meant to be played.
LOS for lasers in Ogre is a little fiddly. It's one of my least-favorite things in the game, in fact, because it's a later edition that doesn't mesh well. The important thing to remember is the context defined by the rest of the game (hence my original comment about effects entering vs leaving a hex). Ogre does not typically define things based on where you are or where you are coming from, but rather where you are going. Ogre is definitely a case of "don't overthink it."
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Old 11-19-2019, 09:54 AM   #9
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Default Re: Rule Qs: Turrets, ENG OVR, Battlesuits

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
With the rail ending in 0413. . .
Ah, so it does: looking at the map with my units on it, I had missed that little detail.

Thank you.
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Old 11-19-2019, 01:06 PM   #10
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Default Re: Rule Qs: Turrets, ENG OVR, Battlesuits

One of the cool things about laser weaponry IRL is you just use the firing optics as your sighting scope.
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