How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

[hal]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Magic for 4e says (p.16):
So, if the enchanter was working alone, they would need skill-15 in Enchant and the other spell. Working with an assistant, they would be able to convert time into power, and the extra power into skill.

Converting time into power - do you have the specific page where the wording on trading time for power exists? All I see is "Trading energy for skill".

Also, it should be pointed out, that for an extra +10% cost in character points, a mage can have Magery that permits Solitary Ceremonial Spell casting. Granted, GURPS THAUMATOLOGY is optional, but that rule about solitary ceremonial casting no longer hold entirely true.

None the less, I could have sworn that I came to the conclusion that MAGIC for 4e excluded the ability to trade time for skill.

Yes, it does allow for trading ENERGY for skill by wording, but how do you trade energy for skill unless you're using QUCK AND DIRTY rather than SLOW AND SURE?

So, if you have a page reference, please list it so I can remove my original doubt that 4e specifically omits that possibility that 3e's version allowed for?

Thanks. :)

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by hal

Converting time into power - do you have the specific page where the wording on trading time for power exists? All I see is "Trading energy for skill".

Well, if you're putting more energy into a S&S enchant, you have to be taking more time. Thus you are trading time for power.

[Rupert]

One way round the high cost of S&S enchants, for smaller enchants, is to look into Q&D using powerstones, something that was considered in 3e, but was simply dismissed in 4e.

If one assumes that a powerstone will last on average 5 years before being lost, broken, or stolen, and you want a rate of return of 10% (or they last 10 years and a 20% rate of return), the cost of a point of power from a 'classic' (i.e. small gem) powerstone is less than $1/point up to a 4-point stone. That brings the $1/point threshold to 84 energy (and means that the enchanters' basement will have two dozen stones stored in it, carefully spaced just over 6 feet apart - about $10,000 in very portable loot, or $4,800 just for the gem value).

If enchanters are normally Comfortable (and Wealthy for the leaders) and Q&D thus runs at $2/point, the threshold goes up to about a 10-point stone, and $2/point up to 120 energy.

But wait! In 4e you can use cheap objects for your powerstone at four times the energy - i.e. 80 points a cast. Note that this is inside the economic reach of a circle with 4-point stones, so they can bootstrap themselves economically, which makes the maths a whole lot simpler. This means that up to a 15-point stone becomes economical, and enchanter's basements just got a lot bigger (and their powerstones only useful to other mages), or enchanters only do big jobs once every week or two. Now a normal Q&D circle can do up to 150-energy enchants at $1/point (or $2/point in a richer mage society).

Note that even using classic powerstones, at $33/energy a circle can still produce economical Q&D enchants using 40-point stones, allowing up to 300-point enchants at a rate slightly under S&S, and with much less waiting around. I expect that they'd be able to charge more than the $33/point going rate for S&S jobs just for the convenience - at worst you'd be waiting a month and a half for their stones to recharge unless they had quite a queue of orders. The size of 'cheap' powerstones that you could turn a profit at and charge under $33/point is something like 500-points, which is well into the range where the odds of getting a circle's worth in a timely fashion is next to nil because of critical failures. You should be able to get a circle's worth of those 40-point stones in a reasonable time, though, and obviously they'd be made with non-gem objects.

So, we have cheap enchants up to 150-points, and then they get progressively more expensive to 300-points, after which they'll be done as S&S at the full S&S price.

This makes low-end weapon enchants a lot cheaper, and makes Lesser Wish affordable, and Wish something you don't have to order ahead months in advance (merely weeks). Simulacrums, Doppelgangers, and powerful Golems are still the work of mage-months and years.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by whswhs

This is what capital is for. When you start a widget factory, you have to pay your workers before you sell your first widget.

So you propose that all enchanters have a patron footing the bill? Ok, that makes sense.

Originally Posted by Phantasm

I reduce casting time for such projects by permitting not just 1 energy per mage-day but full available energy per mage-day, generally 10-14 energy per mage.

I actually use this as well. The difference in output between slow and sure vs quick and dirty is large enough that I want something in-between.

Originally Posted by Anthony

The big problems with S&S are that it requires 7 days a week, and there's no way a skill that requires Magery 2, at least one Hard spell at 15, at least one VH spell at 15, and at least 9 other spells is an Average job.

Heh. That's a problem with Quick and Dirty as well. I actually require most mages in most settings to take wealth, because magic basically gaurentees it. Its like requiring a doctor to take wealth. Exceptions exist, of course, but those are probably require an additional disadvantage like Debt, Vow, or Duty.

Originally Posted by Andreas

The Enslave spell and the double cost version of the Wraith spell would both solve those problems.

Originally Posted by hal

Frankly? The idea that a mage can spend 2,000 days non-stop on enchantments is largely bogus. Take a hard look at the people in your life and ask "Could you count on more than one finger, how many people have worked 2 years without calling in sick or being sick" The answer is likely no. That's only 700 some days, let alone 2,000.

Using the enslave spell all over the place is something a lot of people scowl at as an abuse of the system, but I can actually see mental magic being very useful for getting a mage to stay on task. I actually think the Oath spell is probably the best way to keep mages on task. They are only bound to work on that one item, and the casting cost is much lower, as is the prerequisite chain.



Having one mage in 10 assigned to merely supporting enchantment could help a lot. If they're sick, heal them. If they're discouraged, cast spells to increase their desire to work. If they have a family emergency, cast communication spells to help communicate easily in off hours, or cast vigil to help them have time to fulfill all they need to do.



It strikes me that enchanters would do well in a monastic or military environment. Keep them happy, work them hard, take good care of them.

[AlexanderHowl]

Monastic and military enchanters tend to go against theme though. Anyway, for the same point cost, nearly every other form of magic is more profitable than enchanting. For example, with the same point cost, you can make a very competent agrarian mage who should make much more money than an enchanter through using the five spells mentioned in Agrarian Magic in Fantasy.

When I use the enchanting system, I increase the value of enchanted object 8x, meaning that enchanted items are quite expensive and enchanter become quite wealthy. With Q&D items costing $8 per energy point and S&S items costing $264 per energy point, enchanting becomes a viable life choice. It also means that any magical item becomes something worth cherishing. Of course, I also have the Power of the enchantment effectively function like the skill of a mage, reducing FP cost and time, instead of having separate Power and Speed enchantments, and I have magical items being usable by everyone unless restricted with Limiting enchantments.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

My. With Q&D items costing $8 per energy point and S&S items costing $264 per energy point, enchanting becomes a viable life choice.

If you can find any customers anyway.

I might could justify an Umbrella item if it's possible to do 100 pts with Q&D. If you have to do it S&S then $26,400 for one is out of the question.

+1 Accuracy or Puissance is already not competive with Balanced or Fine Quality even at the $20 "used" price from DF. $66,200 for +1 to hit or damage is crazy talk.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

If you can find any customers anyway.

I might could justify an Umbrella item if it's possible to do 100 pts with Q&D. If you have to do it S&S then $26,400 for one is out of the question.

+1 Accuracy or Puissance is already not competive with Balanced or Fine Quality even at the $20 "used" price from DF. $66,200 for +1 to hit or damage is crazy talk.

Fred makes a good point.

Just a simple thought experiment for you.

Take 1 character, status -1, who is making a struggling income. Pay for the cost of living as is required, and any money that is made above the cost of living, comes under the category of discretionary spending.

Divide the cost of any magical thing when sold retail, by the discretionary spending. That's how many months or years of saving up one's discretionary spending to be able to afford the product.

Now for another thought experiment if you will. If an alchemist makes a given amount of money per month - how many potions does he have to sell at a profit (ie above the cost of materials used to make it) to make his payroll? Once you start to see just how difficult it is in GURPS for a character to earn his income - ie, find someone who can buy what he makes or sells as a service, and you can begin to appreciate what Fred is getting at.

If you're of a mind and have the spare coin to spend. Head over to RPGNOW and look up the following possible purchases:

Grain into Gold - the author lists various costs of services and gives you guidelines on how to structure your fantasy economy in a way that makes sense.

FARM FORGE and Steel - here, the author gives you bit of background on various things as relates to low tech societies.

The Marketplace - its subtitle is "A GUIDE TO COSTS & PRICES IN A MEDIEVAL WORLD" - a nice read in my opinion.

Orbis Mundi - the author here goes into some rather detailed background on medieval times. He has since produced a second edition of the PDF book, while I still have the first and have not purchased his second edition. If the second is anything like the first, you will have an enjoyable read on material worth including in your games. For instance - how does one "clip" gold coins? Put a whole bunch of them together in a leather bag and shake it vigourously until the inside of the bag is filled with small gold flecks that came off due to the coins scratching each other. The author explains WHY that happens.

In any event, the author of three of those books is Phillip McGregor, while Grain into Gold doesn't list the author's name unfortunately.

Something to consider for use in your games. They have a wealth of information to where you can adapt some of it for your own campaign worlds.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

+1 Accuracy or Puissance is already not competive with Balanced or Fine Quality even at the $20 "used" price from DF. $66,200 for +1 to hit or damage is crazy talk.

Those enchants, at the DF prices (or the Magic $33/point ones) are something that you put on your already Balanced and Very Fine blade to make it even more awesome - and probably after you've but Penetrating (2) on it.

To compete even a bit (i.e. on swords, which are really expansive when upgraded) with Balanced, +1 Accuracy would need to be in the $2400 ballpark (so less than $10/energy), and Puissance vs Fine needs to be around $1800 (so about $7/energy). Puissance on a Fine balde can compete with Very Fine at up to $38/energy.

Of course, cost-concious delvers who use Duelling Halberds and Axes (cheaper than swords even when made by Dwarves) won't find enchants cost-effective except as upgrades to already shiny weapons unless they're down at $1-$2/energy on the halberd and $0.60-$0.80/energy on the axe.

You could probably make S&S enchanting in a DF game run at something like IQ+Magery per day before it would start becoming terribly attractive to PCs.

[Anthony]

With access to powerstones on cheap materials, the break point for S&S over Q&D is generally upwards of 600 energy. I pulled together a nasty spreadsheet a few years back here.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Anthony

With access to powerstones on cheap materials, the break point for S&S over Q&D is generally upwards of 600 energy.

I concluded it would be lower, because of the difficulty of getting powerstones of that level that weren't so badly quirked that they'd be unusable. Also, while they might still have a reasonable cost to produce, the critical failure rate is high enough that supply would be quite limited, driving the price up if there's serious demand.