Splitting No Mana and No Magic

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Yep.
GURPS really shoud have an offical "No Magic" switch, instead it is listed as a feature in some worlds.
I would like to see it all redone, along the lines of Leveled and Aspected Mana and a Maguc/No Magic switch.
Energy costs and crits modifed by levels.
The option to still power things with stored mana in low and "no mana " zones.
Mana Enhance to have cosmic "Rules Exemption" if the GM wants it as an option in a Non magic world.

...I don't see the point. Either the GM wants to allow some magic or it doesn't. In a world that is honestly and sincerely "no magic" there is simply nobody with advantages like Magery or Mana Enhancer.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

Err, no. RAW No Mana does not prevent Mana Enhancer from working...

Well, yeah. Not exactly alike then, but that amounts to little more than a setting feature. Given the typical paucity of NMZs and Mana Enhancers in games I know of, saying that ME doesn't work in NMZs wouldn't amount to much of a limitation.

[PseudoFenton]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

I also don't really get No Magic. All this effects are characters with Mana Enhancer

Originally Posted by fartrader

Yea, "No Magic" is simply a feature of the setting/campaign {snip}
I don't get the point.

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

There's no mystery to 'No Magic'. It's just RAW 'No Mana' renamed. That choice in naming might be unfortunate, as it seems conducive to misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

...I don't see the point. Either the GM wants to allow some magic or it doesn't. In a world that is honestly and sincerely "no magic" there is simply nobody with advantages like Magery or Mana Enhancer.

I'm not really sure why there is so much confusion here, there are clearly defined properties of No Magic that significantly differ from either "this setting has no magic" and "this is an area that has no mana".

A No Magic zone simply suspends all magical effects, it may have mana, but magic cannot be worked within it. It means things that feed off of mana etc are fine in these areas. It means magic that doesn't require an external power source (ambient mana) does not function here.

This makes it different from No Mana as it is the oppose effect, things that need mana to survive are harmed here (or weakened), whilst working magic from a closed of internally powered system still (generally) functions fine (within certain operandum, which may be setting specific).

Also, the OP pointed out that No Magic can exist in areas, which makes it unique from a setting toggle. It can exist on only some planets, or planes, or forests, or mystical dead spots. It has no relation to the type or amount of mana in the area (like twisted mana, or high mana, which may affect creatures that are magically attuned), it just stops magic, you can't cast spells or use magical enhancements. You could call it a No Spell zone if you want, but that might cause confusions with ongoing enchantments which are equally suspended.


I personally like the idea of splitting the two, and this is as good a way as any (although there are many more ways to skin this beast). However my own personal magic system is vastly obtuse and heavily undermines many of the concepts and assumptions that make up 4e Magic and its entailing toggles and bolt-ons from Thaumatology. So I may be somewhat biased in the "yes, just change the fundamental assumptions" approach to mixing things up (as opposed to just adding further modifiers to the preordained 'standard' system).

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

A No Magic zone simply suspends all magical effects, it may have mana, but magic cannot be worked within it. It means things that feed off of mana etc are fine in these areas. It means magic that doesn't require an external power source (ambient mana) does not function here.

So I can spin the magnet, but can't induce a current?

Mana is magical energy. If the energy is there, and I know how to manipulate it, what is stopping me from using it? If something is stopping me from using it, why are things that need to use mana to live able to?

This makes it different from No Mana as it is the oppose effect, things that need mana to survive are harmed here (or weakened), whilst working magic from a closed of internally powered system still (generally) functions fine (within certain operandum, which may be setting specific).

A.K.A a really small mana zone, or a shrine to the god of magic, or a gadget Mana Enhancer. I'm fine with gods, spirits, and artifacts doing weird things. That doesn't mean I need to define a new type of zone.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Tyneras

That would be neat.I'm imagining redefining "normal mana" as some sort of mana level 0, with magic in general or specific aspects being +/- levels. For crits, I could see the appropriate level modifier being added directly to the roll, so an area with +5 to an aspect would have a +5 modifier to crit rolls, good and bad, while a -5 aspect would have -5 to those rolls, possibly turning a crit (good or bad) into a normal.

Personally, I've been rather fond of the idea of removing automatic energy discounts for skill and making it a flat -5 skill per point of cost reduction to encourage moderate skill levels and buying up the technique. One could then have any aspect bonus add to that technique at, say, double strength with a more modest general skill bonus, if any. Having more energy available doesn't mean you'll be any more skilled at using it.

I like that idea for crits, its simple and easy to remember.
I have favored the trade skill for energy option since 3E or so and it is in Thaumatology, though the penalty trade offs are different then I recall.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

...I don't see the point. Either the GM wants to allow some magic or it doesn't. In a world that is honestly and sincerely "no magic" there is simply nobody with advantages like Magery or Mana Enhancer.

Its pretty rare I agree, but can come up with world hopping campaigns.

[dataweaver]

If “No Mana” is a Zone where there’s no ambient thaumic energy to power magical effects, then I’d picture “Negative Mana” as a zone that’s actively hostile to magic: not only do spells not work and creatures who subsist on mana “starve”, but attempting to cast a spell will hurt the caster (possibly by using the Corruption rules from GURPS Horror, and creatures of magic are being poisoned. In fact, Negative Mana might enable spellcasting in its own, messed-up way: no penalty for casting in a Normal Anti-Mana Zone; but you’ll gain one point of Corruption for every energy point you spend on the spell.

I could see adding a “Very Low Mana Level” between Low Mana and No Mana, and possibly more levels than that: you could potentially squeeze an infinite number of “really, really, really Low Mana” levels between Low and No. However, beware of Zeno’s Paradox: the more levels you squeeze in between No and Low, the more levels of Mana Enhancer are needed to take you from No to Low. As such, I probably wouldn’t define separate levels, per se; I’d just add a Very Low level and stop there, maybe giving it a variable penalty that starts at -10 and gets worse.

Alternately, consider a variant where Mana Enhancer magnifies the effects of existing ambient mana: No Mana cannot be amplified (because twice zero is still zero), but you can pack an infinite number of “Really Low Mana” levels between Low and No: Mana Enhancer steps you away from No, and a Mana Damper Advantage would step you down toward No. On a number line, “Normal Mana” would be ×1; “High” and “Very High” would be ×2 and ×4; “Low” and “Very Low” would be ×½ and ×¼. Mana Enhancer would double the number; Mana Damper would halve it. If you wish, you can express this on a logarithm scale, with ×1 becoming ±0, ×2 and ×4 becoming +1 and +2, and ×½ and ×¼ becoming -1 and -2. “No Mana” (×0) would exist off the bottom end of this scale (that is, -∞).

Coupling this alternative with the notion of Negative Mana (or “Anti-Mana”?), the magnifying effect of Mana Enhancer would become a problem, as it would intensify the Anti-Mana effect: not only doesn’t it make things better for spellcasters, it actively makes things worse. In mathematical terms, Very Low and Low Anti-Mana would be ×-½ and ×-¼; Normal Anti-Mana would be ×-1; High and Very High Anti-Mana would be ×-2 and ×-4; and the doubling effect of Mana Enhancer would shift Very Low to Low to Normal to High to Very High. In such regions, mages would want to be in the company of Mana Dampers, who would suppress the harmful effects of Anti-Mana.

I’m not going to speculate on the kinds of creatures and spells that would be fueled by Anti-Mana.

[Rolando]

The negative mana may be Magical Resistant areas/worlds.

So the place have a rating of magical resistance... it is not low mana, but a mana region that is hard to mold for spell casting (and maybe even powers with the mana origin). Otherwise it may be Low, Normal, Very Low (if you use it), etc.

So in a magical resistant very high mana place (a temple of chaos maybe?) you have a lot of ambient mana that is hard to mold and may increase the risk of a critical failure.

[PseudoFenton]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

So I can spin the magnet, but can't induce a current?

Mana is magical energy. If the energy is there, and I know how to manipulate it, what is stopping me from using it? If something is stopping me from using it, why are things that need to use mana to live able to?

A.K.A a really small mana zone, or a shrine to the god of magic, or a gadget Mana Enhancer. I'm fine with gods, spirits, and artifacts doing weird things. That doesn't mean I need to define a new type of zone.

Effectively, yes. Consider it an already ongoing magical effect that supersedes all other magical effects. It drains off all the useful current before you get a chance to use it, or its affect is simply to halt any current from being produced. It could be the effect of some disastrous calamity that has somehow 'frozen' magic in the area, or an actual divine curse that actively stops magic from taking place. Who cares why the 'magnet' isn't producing current, the important thing is that it isn't and magic is not science.

As for "mana is energy, spells are the result of direct manipulation of it", that may not be the case in all setting, which easily answers your next query. For instance, if "spellcraft" is akin to producing a painting (ie, art), then it obviously needs paint to make a spell - however it also needs paintbrushes and canvases, which are generally just as plentiful as paint in all places.
All places except No Magic zones that is. Here there is as much paint as you like, but nothing to produce art/paintings with, you might be a first class artist, but you have nothing to work the paint with as those elements of the environment are oddly missing. Now, if you only want to eat the paint, then you're fine! You can eat as much paint as you like because you don't need to know how to produce art or use a paintbrush for that, you just put it in your mouth (or absorb it through your skin, or whatever).

If that doesn't convey the point because you take the paint anaology too literally and "well you can paint with fingers on walls" then consider casting spells to be making splashes in water. You need a body of water, and to be able to hit the water. Easy. However if that water is stored in a tank, with no space for the water to move, then no splashes can be made - but a fish could still 'breath' in that water, it doesn't care about splashes on the surface, it cares about oxygen in the water.

No Magic, does differ from No Mana. It may not differ by much, and it may seem quirky to the way you perceive magic to operate, but it does have differing characteristics that may be of use to people who make different assumptions on what 'mana' is and how 'magic' is produced.

Originally Posted by Rolando

The negative mana may be Magical Resistant areas/worlds.

So the place have a rating of magical resistance... it is not low mana, but a mana region that is hard to mold for spell casting (and maybe even powers with the mana origin). Otherwise it may be Low, Normal, Very Low (if you use it), etc.

So in a magical resistant very high mana place (a temple of chaos maybe?) you have a lot of ambient mana that is hard to mold and may increase the risk of a critical failure.

I love this idea, it would actually make two overlapping scales. One which is "how much mana is here" the bottom end of which is "No Mana", the other is "how much magic resistance does this place have" the top end being "None" (which is the most common), the bottom end being "Immunity" (ie, No Magic). Which neatly explains both how No Magic operates, and how such a thing like Negative Mana makes sense when measuring the presence of something. It's neat, and probably a much easier idea to digest and make use of, especially as it still allows the mana in an area to have 'flavours' with aspected and twisted mana etc.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

I'm not really sure why there is so much confusion here, there are clearly defined properties of No Magic that significantly differ from either "this setting has no magic" and "this is an area that has no mana".

The op did say that "No Magic would work identically to current No Mana".