Splitting No Mana and No Magic

Tyneras · 07-05-2014, 04:24 PM

An idea I’ve been toying with for a while, though I have no particular plans to use it at the moment.

Currently No Mana is described as thus (Basic p.235):
No Mana: No one can use magic at all. Magic items do not function (but regain their powers when taken to an area with mana). This mana level occurs in isolated spots in magical worlds, but entire game worlds can lack mana, making magic use impossible.

As a minor system tweak, I propose splitting the current No Mana into “No Mana” and “No Magic”. No Magic would work identically to current No Mana, magic magic itself a binary on/off setting.

No Magic: No one can use magic at all. Magic items do not function (but regain their powers when taken to an area with magic). This magic level occurs in isolated spots in magical worlds, but entire game worlds can be no magic, making magic use impossible. Mana Enhancer has no effect here.

No Mana: Only mages can cast spells, and all spells perform at -10 to skill, for all purposes. However, critical failures have no effect at all. The complete absence of ambient mana means all energy must be supplied via the mage’s own reserves or by power stones or other mana storage units that will not regenerate their reserves while in the area. The Recover Energy spell does nothing and there is no discount for high skill. The enormous skill penalty means most magical items will not work, combined with the lack of any ambient mana such zones can be mistaken for No Magic zones.

Game Effects
Potentially none, one could simply declare that that all areas currently listed as No Mana are No Magic areas and continue on with no change as long as Mana Enhancer isn’t involved. However, I think the possibility of an organization or game group discovering an area assumed to be No Magic is actually No Mana is a potentially interesting surprise, pleasant or otherwise!

This would allow extremely skilled mages with significant energy reserves to operate in No Mana zones, if in a limited fashion.

Negative Man Levels
Making an area even more hostile to wizardry is possible.

Negative Mana: On top of the penalties of No Mana, an area with levels of negative mana has an additional -2 to skill and increases the cost of casting and maintaining spells by 1 + the number of negative mana levels. At NML 1 the mage is at -12 to skill and spells cost 2 times as much to cast and maintain. At NML 2 the mage is at -14 to skill and spells cost 3 times as much, and so on.

Dinadon · 07-05-2014, 04:48 PM

Have you read Thaumatology pg.58-62? It sounds like you want a Very Low Mana Zone.

Not another shrubbery · 07-05-2014, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinadon

Have you read Thaumatology pg.58-62? It sounds like you want a Very Low Mana Zone.

Yeah, they're quite similar, although I kinda like his syntax more.

The idea of Negative Mana doesn't make much sense to me. With the system generally having a lower bound of -10 for such modifiers, I'd say to just look to Aspects if you want further environmental penalties.

Dinadon · 07-06-2014, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Yeah, they're quite similar, although I kinda like his syntax more.

I prefer what's in Thaumatology, since it's just a simple extension of the existing Low mana rules, so there isn't much more to remember. His version is also much harsher with energy, without any real reason. The -10 penalty for mana means you need base skill 25 in Recover Energy for it to work, base skill 25 in any other spell to get energy reductions and power 25 magic items. This has much the same effect as what he wants. If he doesn't want those energy reductions coming into effect he just needs to ensure mages don't get powerful enough.

I also don't really get No Magic. All this effects are characters with Mana Enhancer, a trait that isn't necessarily going to be available in most campaigns. If I'm allowing Mana Enhancer, I'm rarely concerned that the character will never be without mana, since it's Mana Enhancer with Area Effect that's the problematic one. So I don't really see what the nerf is in aid of.

~~namada~~ · 07-06-2014, 06:26 AM

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WingedKagouti · 07-06-2014, 07:17 AM

The variant of No Mana in the OP is almost the exact same as Very Low Mana from Thaum.

The only reason I'd add a No Magic layer is if that still allows for a Mana Level above standard No Mana, in case of Dependency [Mana] races/characters like the various DF Faerie Folk, giving them an area where magic can't be used but they don't automatically wither away.

Negative Mana has a purpose if the area has a constant active drain of energy points from magical items and requires extra FP to cast spells. Though calling it Negative Mana does imply that it includes the limitations from the standard No Mana (ie. no spell casting). Regardless of whatever name is used, I'd give anyone with Magery or Mana Dependency a warning when entering such an area, as such a mana flow it should definitely be noticable.

A consequence of a "Negative Mana" area would be forcing it to be surrounded by a No Mana area after having existed for a while. Simply because the active drain of mana would naturally not be restricted to a single area. Also, Mana Dependent races should probably lose HP at an increased rate. But unless it's an important feature of a campaign/world, I'd not bother naming it and just designate an area with that kind of effect and then describe the drain to any sensitive character that enters/approaches it.

Not another shrubbery · 07-06-2014, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinadon

I prefer what's in Thaumatology, since it's just a simple extension of the existing Low mana rules, so there isn't much more to remember. His version is also much harsher with energy, without any real reason. The -10 penalty for mana means you need base skill 25 in Recover Energy for it to work, base skill 25 in any other spell to get energy reductions and power 25 magic items. This has much the same effect as what he wants. If he doesn't want those energy reductions coming into effect he just needs to ensure mages don't get powerful enough.

I also don't really get No Magic. All this effects are characters with Mana Enhancer, a trait that isn't necessarily going to be available in most campaigns. If I'm allowing Mana Enhancer, I'm rarely concerned that the character will never be without mana, since it's Mana Enhancer with Area Effect that's the problematic one. So I don't really see what the nerf is in aid of.

The differences between his 'No Mana' and Thaumatology's 'Very Low Mana' are slight enough to be considered stylistic. I don't see any real reason to consider the latter preferable in general. You might, of course, find one or the other more suited to your tastes. The effect of VLM on creatures with Mana Dependency is a nice gimmick, but might be too fiddling for some, ferrinstance.

There's no mystery to 'No Magic'. It's just RAW 'No Mana' renamed. That choice in naming might be unfortunate, as it seems conducive to misunderstanding.

Dinadon · 07-06-2014, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

There's no mystery to 'No Magic'. It's just RAW 'No Mana' renamed. That choice in naming might be unfortunate, as it seems conducive to misunderstanding.

Err, no. RAW No Mana does not prevent Mana Enhancer from working...

Refplace · 07-06-2014, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinadon

Err, no. RAW No Mana does not prevent Mana Enhancer from working...

Yep.
GURPS really shoud have an offical "No Magic" switch, instead it is listed as a feature in some worlds.
I would like to see it all redone, along the lines of Leveled and Aspected Mana and a Maguc/No Magic switch.
Energy costs and crits modifed by levels.
The option to still power things with stored mana in low and "no mana " zones.
Mana Enhance to have cosmic "Rules Exemption" if the GM wants it as an option in a Non magic world.

Tyneras · 07-06-2014, 12:04 PM

Negative Mana Levels was me realizing I'd redefined the system to have no real "bottom" like it currently does and taking a quick stab at the consequences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Refplace

Yep.
GURPS really shoud have an offical "No Magic" switch, instead it is listed as a feature in some worlds.
I would like to see it all redone, along the lines of Leveled and Aspected Mana and a Maguc/No Magic switch.
Energy costs and crits modifed by levels.
The option to still power things with stored mana in low and "no mana " zones.
Mana Enhance to have cosmic "Rules Exemption" if the GM wants it as an option in a Non magic world.

That would be neat.I'm imagining redefining "normal mana" as some sort of mana level 0, with magic in general or specific aspects being +/- levels. For crits, I could see the appropriate level modifier being added directly to the roll, so an area with +5 to an aspect would have a +5 modifier to crit rolls, good and bad, while a -5 aspect would have -5 to those rolls, possibly turning a crit (good or bad) into a normal.

Personally, I've been rather fond of the idea of removing automatic energy discounts for skill and making it a flat -5 skill per point of cost reduction to encourage moderate skill levels and buying up the technique. One could then have any aspect bonus add to that technique at, say, double strength with a more modest general skill bonus, if any. Having more energy available doesn't mean you'll be any more skilled at using it.

07-05-2014, 04:24 PM	#1
Tyneras Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Kentucky, USA	Splitting No Mana and No Magic An idea I’ve been toying with for a while, though I have no particular plans to use it at the moment. Currently No Mana is described as thus (Basic p.235): No Mana: No one can use magic at all. Magic items do not function (but regain their powers when taken to an area with mana). This mana level occurs in isolated spots in magical worlds, but entire game worlds can lack mana, making magic use impossible. As a minor system tweak, I propose splitting the current No Mana into “No Mana” and “No Magic”. No Magic would work identically to current No Mana, magic magic itself a binary on/off setting. No Magic: No one can use magic at all. Magic items do not function (but regain their powers when taken to an area with magic). This magic level occurs in isolated spots in magical worlds, but entire game worlds can be no magic, making magic use impossible. Mana Enhancer has no effect here. No Mana: Only mages can cast spells, and all spells perform at -10 to skill, for all purposes. However, critical failures have no effect at all. The complete absence of ambient mana means all energy must be supplied via the mage’s own reserves or by power stones or other mana storage units that will not regenerate their reserves while in the area. The Recover Energy spell does nothing and there is no discount for high skill. The enormous skill penalty means most magical items will not work, combined with the lack of any ambient mana such zones can be mistaken for No Magic zones. Game Effects Potentially none, one could simply declare that that all areas currently listed as No Mana are No Magic areas and continue on with no change as long as Mana Enhancer isn’t involved. However, I think the possibility of an organization or game group discovering an area assumed to be No Magic is actually No Mana is a potentially interesting surprise, pleasant or otherwise! This would allow extremely skilled mages with significant energy reserves to operate in No Mana zones, if in a limited fashion. Negative Man Levels Making an area even more hostile to wizardry is possible. Negative Mana: On top of the penalties of No Mana, an area with levels of negative mana has an additional -2 to skill and increases the cost of casting and maintaining spells by 1 + the number of negative mana levels. At NML 1 the mage is at -12 to skill and spells cost 2 times as much to cast and maintain. At NML 2 the mage is at -14 to skill and spells cost 3 times as much, and so on.

07-05-2014, 04:48 PM	#2
Dinadon Join Date: Aug 2007	Re: Splitting No Mana and No Magic Have you read Thaumatology pg.58-62? It sounds like you want a Very Low Mana Zone.

07-06-2014, 06:26 AM	#5
~~namada~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2006	Re: Splitting No Mana and No Magic * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Last edited by namada; 09-21-2014 at 12:20 AM.

07-06-2014, 07:17 AM	#6
WingedKagouti Join Date: Oct 2007	Re: Splitting No Mana and No Magic The variant of No Mana in the OP is almost the exact same as Very Low Mana from Thaum. The only reason I'd add a No Magic layer is if that still allows for a Mana Level above standard No Mana, in case of Dependency [Mana] races/characters like the various DF Faerie Folk, giving them an area where magic can't be used but they don't automatically wither away. Negative Mana has a purpose if the area has a constant active drain of energy points from magical items and requires extra FP to cast spells. Though calling it Negative Mana does imply that it includes the limitations from the standard No Mana (ie. no spell casting). Regardless of whatever name is used, I'd give anyone with Magery or Mana Dependency a warning when entering such an area, as such a mana flow it should definitely be noticable. A consequence of a "Negative Mana" area would be forcing it to be surrounded by a No Mana area after having existed for a while. Simply because the active drain of mana would naturally not be restricted to a single area. Also, Mana Dependent races should probably lose HP at an increased rate. But unless it's an important feature of a campaign/world, I'd not bother naming it and just designate an area with that kind of effect and then describe the drain to any sensitive character that enters/approaches it.