Murder most foul

[Drifter]

I've been wondering about extradition.

Its been my assumption that murder is not an Imperial crime, if it takes place in a local planet's jurisdiction. At a starport or on a ship is another matter.

So, Thug commits a murder on Planet X. He escapes to the starport and jumps to Planet Y. He is arrested on Planet Y for a minor crime.

Can Planet X have an extradtion treaty with Planet Y? If so Planet Y sends Thug back to Planet X to face the consequences. If not, Thug, a known murderer, is allowed back on the streets of Planet Y.

Does an extradtion treaty between two worlds violate the terms of Imperial membership? That is, no organization at the interstellar level?

Is such extradtion part of Imperial membership, part of the perks of Imperial membership? If so, what about a world that abhors the death penalty? Planet Y doesn't want to extradite Thug because on Planet X the punishment for murder is death by public torture. Or murder on Planet Y is a misdemeanor.

If extradtion treaties are allowed between member worlds, how are they monitored and controlled? Does this lead to other agreements, like cultural exchanges, edging up to trade agreements. I can see that trade agreements conflict directly with the Imperial sphere of influence, but how close can you get? Would the 3I ban extadition treaties just because they end up leading to 'mission creep' and ending up with trade disputes negotiated outside of the Imperial ageis?

[Anthony]

I suspect extradition treaties are legal, but you're missing a point: extradition treaties are not actually required. Absent a treaty, planet Y doesn't have to send him back, but it's under no obligation (unless one is imposed by local law) to not send him back.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by Drifter

So, Thug commits a murder on Planet X. He escapes to the starport and jumps to Planet Y. He is arrested on Planet Y for a minor crime.

Can Planet X have an extradtion treaty with Planet Y? If so Planet Y sends Thug back to Planet X to face the consequences. If not, Thug, a known murderer, is allowed back on the streets of Planet Y.

I don't see why not. However, Planet Y may require Planet X to send someone to fetch Thug (and pay the transportation expenses). Planet Y may or may not require Planet X to present a case against Thug. The offense probably has to be murder by Planet Y's standards, and Planet Y may require guarantees that Thug won't suffer a punishment worse than Planet Y would inflict for the same offense.

Does an extradtion treaty between two worlds violate the terms of Imperial membership? That is, no organization at the interstellar level?

I don't think that's a standard term of Imperial membership. There are plenty of organizations that work on the interstellar level.

Is such extradtion part of Imperial membership, part of the perks of Imperial membership? If so, what about a world that abhors the death penalty? Planet Y doesn't want to extradite Thug because on Planet X the punishment for murder is death by public torture. Or murder on Planet Y is a misdemeanor.

I think extradition is not part of Imperial membership for the very reason you mention.


Hans

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Drifter

I've been wondering about extradition.

Its been my assumption that murder is not an Imperial crime, if it takes place in a local planet's jurisdiction. At a starport or on a ship is another matter.

So, Thug commits a murder on Planet X. He escapes to the starport and jumps to Planet Y. He is arrested on Planet Y for a minor crime.

Can Planet X have an extradtion treaty with Planet Y? If so Planet Y sends Thug back to Planet X to face the consequences. If not, Thug, a known murderer, is allowed back on the streets of Planet Y.

Seeing as how this is Traveler and the whole social system is set up to accommodate the low life thugs the players will be running, I'm almost certain that once you get clear of the planet the only thing you have to worry about is random bounty hunters looking to collect that posted reward.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Seeing as how this is Traveler and the whole social system is set up to accommodate the low life thugs the players will be running, I'm almost certain that once you get clear of the planet the only thing you have to worry about is random bounty hunters looking to collect that posted reward.

While this is probably the setting default for most GMs just for the reason you mention (player sheanigans), it misses a lot of adventure hooks.

A player group is less likely to just lob grenades into a camp they need to retrive a box of unobtainium from, if they might face murder charges that will follow them across the sector.

And I would think that bounty hunters would need an extradition treaty, if only to make things run a little more smoothly. Planet X puts a Cr10k bountry on Thug's head, so bounty hunter Bob goes to Planet Y. Say Thug is not in custody, it just looks like Bob is wandering around Planet Y trying to kidnap Thug, since Thug has committed no crime on Planet Y. Simplified argument of course. With a treaty, Planet Y might not have a reason to arrest Thug, but they won't interfere with Bob when he kidnaps Thug and drags him to the starport.

Or Planet Y could just have licensed Bounty Hunters, with no specific extradition treaty with any one planet.

Or they might not give a fig what offworlders do as long as they don't make too much of a fuss.

In this case I would think it depends on the law levels of the worlds in question.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I suspect extradition treaties are legal, but you're missing a point: extradition treaties are not actually required. Absent a treaty, planet Y doesn't have to send him back, but it's under no obligation (unless one is imposed by local law) to not send him back.

I think this runs up again 'sovereignty' issues, if only the feelings and opinions of the locals on Planet Y. Each star system is used to dealing with its own issues, and is encouraged to do so by the 3I, except where trade or a few other situation where interstellar contact might help. And in that case its an Imperial issue and they take care of it, thank you very much.

Planet Y might arrest Thug for jay walking, but why should they go to the trouble of sending him off to Planet X? Why should they be doing the bidding of Planet X? They don't even know if these murder charges are accurate. I'm sure Thug will say they are fabricated. Planet X might, in the future, return the favor - but that isn't a sure thing. Wearing red on Tuesdays might be a capital offense on Planet Y, is Planet X going to send someone back for that? Probably not, if no agreement is in place.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

I don't see why not. However, Planet Y may require Planet X to send someone to fetch Thug (and pay the transportation expenses). Planet Y may or may not require Planet X to present a case against Thug. The offense probably has to be murder by Planet Y's standards, and Planet Y may require guarantees that Thug won't suffer a punishment worse than Planet Y would inflict for the same offense.

This is what I was hoping. There is no specific Imperial denial of such treaties. Details of these treaties, terms, who participates, etc., are on a case by case basis.

Law level probably has a lot to do with it, as does location. Worlds in the same subsector or more likely to have treaties than worlds between subsectors, or sectors. Worlds close together, or on a trade route or main, or more likely to have agreements. A world off the beaten path, with a mid-, to poor-quality port probably doesn't have a treaty with anyone - and becomes a destination for thugs, low-lifes and PCs.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Drifter

I think this runs up again 'sovereignty' issues, if only the feelings and opinions of the locals on Planet Y.

Sovereignty claims often run into issues of "do we really want this low-life thug?". Planet Y will protect citizens of planet Y. They're not going to care so much about people from planet X.

Originally Posted by Drifter

Planet Y might arrest Thug for jay walking, but why should they go to the trouble of sending him off to Planet X?

Because they don't want him on planet Y, and planet X is willing to take him. This is particularly likely if planet X is willing to pay passage costs.

Originally Posted by Drifter

Why should they be doing the bidding of Planet X?

Because they have no reason not to.

Originally Posted by Drifter

Wearing red on Tuesdays might be a capital offense on Planet Y, is Planet X going to send someone back for that?

Only if he makes himself unwelcome on planet X.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by Drifter

This is what I was hoping. There is no specific Imperial denial of such treaties. Details of these treaties, terms, who participates, etc., are on a case by case basis.

There's actually very little canonical information about Imperial treaties. As far as I know the term 'membership treaty' is not mentioned at all anywhere (outside fanon). There are a few vague allusions to the functions of Imperial consulates in the three versions of the Exit Visa adventure and some description of Imperial bureaucrats in a couple of GT books, but that's about all. No, I tell a lie; there's also a bit about the diplomatic quarter on Mora in A Festive Occasion, an adventure I wrote for Mongoose. But as for actual solid information about the realtionships between the Imperium and its member worlds and between the member worlds... very little of it.


Hans

[thrash]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

There's actually very little canonical information about Imperial treaties. As far as I know the term 'membership treaty' is not mentioned at all anywhere (outside fanon).

It's just called an "Imperial Charter":

"The home rule provisions of the Imperial Charter for the world clearly prohibit interference in internal affairs, and as long as the Solomani stay within the law, the hands of the lmperium are tied." Double Adventure 3a, The Argon Gambit, p. 12.

"Due to the nature of the Imperial Charter's home-rule provisions, the lmperium cannot intervene to suppress the Solomani Party on lntanevac unless they actively engage in treason, or in the event of a declared Imperial emergency." Ibid., p. 17.

(There's a fair amount of flavor text on politics, local and Imperial, in the rest of that adventure as well.)

Using the same term for member worlds as for corporations (Supp. 8, p. 40) and institutions (Supp. 11, p. 15) leads one to wonder whether the Imperium considers all three to be the same in some respects.