The Deadly Spring question

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Even taking only one Special Training perk and one level of Arm ST requires ST 13, which is still reasonably reasonable.

And Strongbow, but it's still reasonable. 20 points in a style that IIRC includes some basic Yeoman farmer kind of skills in the first place for what were essentially an elite infantry which trained from childhood (all it takes is about two hours of training a day from age 8 to 18 assuming about half was under tutelage).

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

30 points in the style; it's three perks: Strongbow and Special Exercises (2x).

And that's covered by the 20 points in style. 2 style perks, for the 2x10 points in style, and one general combat perk for 20 points in combat skills and techniques. Exactly as vierasmarius said.

[mhd]

20+ points amongst a select few skills and techniques for Foot Archery is quite a lot, do we really assume that the default yeoman archer had sth. like Bow-15+? That's quite elite even for British history revisionists...

In that case, I'd rather say that a lot of the training time went in the perks department and ignore the points per perk rule.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

And that's covered by the 20 points in style. 2 style perks, for the 2x10 points in style, and one general combat perk for 20 points in combat skills and techniques. Exactly as vierasmarius said.

Ah, yes. I keep forgetting about that.

I still find the perk limit rules somewhat confusing, especially since "combat perks" don't exist in the rules (or as far as Kromm's concerned). You get 1 "style perk" (must be from that style) per 10 points in a style, 1 "style perk" per 20 points in Combat Skills and 1 perk per 25 CPs that cannot be a "style perk" (and the same for "magical style perks" but substitute magical skills). It's still very unclear to me what counts as a "style" perk and what does not. Some "styles" have perks that aren't directly combat related, are those still "style perks" or just perks for that style? Can you get them instead with your non-style perk limit?

Originally Posted by mhd

20+ points amongst a select few skills and techniques for Foot Archery is quite a lot, do we really assume that the default yeoman archer had sth. like Bow-15+? That's quite elite even for British history revisionists...

I'm fairly certain that Foot Archery has more skills than just Bow, but I don't have Martial Arts on me.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Cheomesh

So I've read "The Deadly Spring" in Pyramid and talked it over with a player. For some reason, we think it's kind of strange that every longbowman is going to have at a minimum of 16 strength just to use his bow. Other than using Arm Strength (which is Exotic) is there a way to boost someone's ability to pull a heavy bow?

M.

A ST 16 longbow is about a 128# draw. With Strongbow (which allows +2 ST for having skill at DX+2) and Special Exercises (Arm ST) at an entirely realistic 2 levels, a person with nominal ST 12 can pull the ST 16 bow.

If you want a bow on the lower end of what seemed to be OK for a historical warbow (about 100#, or ST 14), you can do this at ST 10.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by mhd

That would require at least thirty points in the appropriate skills and techniques, right?

Only to learn it as part of a STYLE. Not all archers will have some sort of funky style. The training and exercises that you have to do to get the Special Exercises perk can be handwaved away very realistically by saying "that's what you have to do to be a longbow archer!"

Edit: There has been a lot of off-list conversation on this, backed up by Peter and Kromm. Not all people who are fighters, even awesome fighters, train in a style. Not all vikings who use a spear and shield have "Viking Spear and Shield Fighting" style. In the context of styles, the perk restrictions are a great way to figure out how to allocate stuff. But that's not the ONLY way.

Or "I work out a lot with 'sport-specific' exercises."

The stuff like Strongbow and Arm ST at low levels shouldn't require much justification to get on your sheet. Then, you only need 10 points for the Arm ST and 8 or 12 or whatever points to get to DX+2 in your skill (and since hitting point targets with a ranged weapon in GURPS is pretty tough anyway, you'll likely want WAY more than DX+2 unless you've spent a truck-ton of points in DX).

[lexington]

Originally Posted by mhd

20+ points amongst a select few skills and techniques for Foot Archery is quite a lot, do we really assume that the default yeoman archer had sth. like Bow-15+? That's quite elite even for British history revisionists...

In that case, I'd rather say that a lot of the training time went in the perks department and ignore the points per perk rule.

The points they put into raising ST should go toward qualifying for Special Exercises (even though this isn't RAW) and they probably had skill other than Bow, like Fast-Draw Arrow and maybe Professional Skill (Fletcher).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Edit: There has been a lot of off-list conversation on this, backed up by Peter and Kromm.

That seems to contradict what Kromm has said here, insofar I understand it which isn't very much at all.

EDIT:
This post in particular seems to indicate that you can not get style perks without either 10 points in a style or 20 points in combat skills in general. You can't use your general perks for these. AFAICT, Strongbow and Special Exercises both seem to count as style perks for this.

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'm frankly surprised that this causes any confusion. It seems quite evident to me that "makes magic more powerful," "makes combat abilities more powerful," and "gives me little quirky details" aren't the same goal, and that it makes sense to impose separate limits on the three effects. But for those who find that it is unclear, you may have all of the following:

• Up to one Magic Perk per 20 points in spells.
• Up to one further Magic Perk for a specific magical style per 10 points in that style's spells.
• Up to one Style Perk per 20 points in combat skills and techniques.
• Up to one further Style Perk for a specific fighting style per 10 points in that style's combat skills and techniques.
• Up to one perk that's neither a Magic Perk nor a Style Perk per 25 points you have to build your character.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

That seems to contradict what Kromm has said here, insofar I understand it which isn't very much at all.

EDIT:
This post in particular seems to indicate that you can not get style perks without either 10 points in a style or 20 points in combat skills in general. You can't use your general perks for these. AFAICT, Strongbow and Special Exercises both seem to count as style perks for this.

I think that the above is in the context of "when dealing with styles." But I could be wrong. In a separate forum, though, the point that was made was "not all warriors train in STYLES." That, true enough, doesn't speak to whether or not you can get the perk.

That being said:

* I have ZERO issues with allowing the Strongbow perk and 10 points of Arm ST for those whose background is "spent years training in archery."

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Cheomesh

So I've read "The Deadly Spring" in Pyramid . . .

Oh, and thanks for reading it!

dhc