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Old 01-20-2013, 11:17 AM   #21
Icelander
 
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Default Re: [UT] Help! Future Combat Revolving Around Ultra-Tech Stabbery

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Originally Posted by Seneschal View Post
Regarding that last part about powerful weapons, I assumed one couldn't exactly field something that would reliably cause 80+ damage and still be man-portable, convenient, accurate and have multiple uses. Sure, you can blow someone apart with a thermobaric missile regardless of his barrier, but unless you can make Bulk -4 weapons that shoot such missiles, preferably more than one at a time, you're don't have a viable individual weapon.
The EMGL on UT p. 142 could probably be made with a folding or retractable stock, for Bulk -5*. And at TL11, it can launch anything up to mini-nukes and anti-matter, which is going to ruin the day of anything, force field or not. Or you could make do with HEMP at 6dx5(10)* cr inc + 4d+4 cr ex or thermobaric at 5dx4 cr ex inc.

*+1 per die.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:20 AM   #22
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Default Re: [UT] Help! Future Combat Revolving Around Ultra-Tech Stabbery

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In what way would grenades which have to be within a metre of the target when they go off and can only ever injure one person be more effective than swords, javelins, and bows?
Because swords, javelins and arrows from bows have be within the target to be effective and the likelihood of them harming more than one target in an attack is not much higher. Not to mention that it's far harder to become expert in their use than it is to learn to lob a pebble or baseball within a meter of someone. Or just aim a user-friendly GL.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:22 AM   #23
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Default Re: [UT] Help! Future Combat Revolving Around Ultra-Tech Stabbery

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I remember a thread about some kind of biogenic shields that depend on one's orgone energy or something, and are cancelled out by other shields (like the AT fields from Evangelion). I think people could only use unarmed attacks or organic melee weapons (bone, diamond or graphite blades), otherwise the shields wouldn't touch and cancel out.

That was one of my first inspirations for trying out this kind of sci-fi idea. Was that yours?
The idea underwent many changes along the way. Here's how it is implemented in the current campaign:
http://aetherealsun.wikia.com/wiki/Orgone_Shields

Notice that there are no more shield-merges to worry about. It is the focus of the attacker that is relevant, though. Better focus = less help from a shield.

"Taking an enemy on the battlefield is like a hawk taking a bird. Even though it enters into the midst of a thousand of them, it gives no attention to any bird than the one it first marked. "

An a grenade that indiscriminately explodes, damaging everything in a radius, is nothing like that. So the orgone shield just shrugs it off. :)

Obviously neither has anything to do with a remotely hard setting.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:26 AM   #24
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Default Re: [UT] Help! Future Combat Revolving Around Ultra-Tech Stabbery

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
. Or you could make do with HEMP at 6dx5(10)* cr inc + 4d+4 cr ex or thermobaric at 5dx4 cr ex inc.
Hence my proposal about negating shaped charge weapons. that's practia;lly always necessary for any strong defnse future combat sceario.

You don't use Thermobaric warheads insde space habitats. Expecially not ones you want to capture intact.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:32 AM   #25
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Default Re: [UT] Help! Future Combat Revolving Around Ultra-Tech Stabbery

It's funny, my thoughts kind of ran in the opposite direction: if the shields block even relatively slow-moving matter, then they'd have to come with some kind of oxygen supply system that lives under the shield (which need not be very large if it can recharge itself every time you stop moving), and if you can't even punch or kick through the shield, every fight would be like an underwater wrestling match. So you would win by pinning or using Wrench Limb or similar techniques to disable your opponent to the point where you can slowly poke them with a hypo full of drugs or poison, or slowly slit their throat, or ease a memory metal knife through the shield and into their vitals to slice their insides to ribbons, or just strangle them.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:40 AM   #26
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Default Re: [UT] Help! Future Combat Revolving Around Ultra-Tech Stabbery

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Hence my proposal about negating shaped charge weapons. that's practia;lly always necessary for any strong defnse future combat sceario.

You don't use Thermobaric warheads insde space habitats. Expecially not ones you want to capture intact.
You do use them in actual warfare, though, especially if the alternative would be to be restricted to melee weapons. For OOW, police actions and the occasional special operation where you want to avoid collateral damage, TL11 gases ought to be pretty terrifying. Paralysis or death, doesn't really matter. And in addition to breathing apparatus, full-body coverage would be needed to avoid exposure.

The most plausible way I see for ultra-tech settings to feature melee combat as an important element would be for the PCs not to be involved in warfare, but to be living and adventuring somewhere there are strict legal or cultural restrictions on weapons. Melee weapons might be permissable there as part of a gentleman's attire and for duelling, but energy, projectile or chemical weapons would be restricted to actual warfare, which the PCs wouldn't be doing.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:14 PM   #27
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Default Re: [UT] Help! Future Combat Revolving Around Ultra-Tech Stabbery

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
The idea underwent many changes along the way. Here's how it is implemented in the current campaign:
http://aetherealsun.wikia.com/wiki/Orgone_Shields

Notice that there are no more shield-merges to worry about. It is the focus of the attacker that is relevant, though. Better focus = less help from a shield.

"Taking an enemy on the battlefield is like a hawk taking a bird. Even though it enters into the midst of a thousand of them, it gives no attention to any bird than the one it first marked. "

An a grenade that indiscriminately explodes, damaging everything in a radius, is nothing like that. So the orgone shield just shrugs it off. :)

Obviously neither has anything to do with a remotely hard setting.
Yeah, but I think I still have such a system in place in an earlier draft of the setting, where it came from the resident wise, psionic precursor aliens. It was Will-based and increased with the amount of Psionic Talent. We've been gradually phasing out the more outlandish space opera elements, or putting them in the background, but I must admit a vague superscience shield save me a lot of trouble.

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It's funny, my thoughts kind of ran in the opposite direction: if the shields block even relatively slow-moving matter, then they'd have to come with some kind of oxygen supply system that lives under the shield (which need not be very large if it can recharge itself every time you stop moving), and if you can't even punch or kick through the shield, every fight would be like an underwater wrestling match. So you would win by pinning or using Wrench Limb or similar techniques to disable your opponent to the point where you can slowly poke them with a hypo full of drugs or poison, or slowly slit their throat, or ease a memory metal knife through the shield and into their vitals to slice their insides to ribbons, or just strangle them.
Actually, that kinda pokes a hole inside Dune's Holtzman shields. I'd wager it's easier to just wrestle a shielded opponent than use slow telegraphic attacks with a dagger. However, when a fast object impacted the shield in the movie, it was deflected forcefully, and the wearer was thrown backwards. If that happened to your feet every time you took a step, I doubt you'd be able to do much wrestling.

I was thinking of making my barriers frictionless, so that attacks would glance off as if it was incredibly slippery. Then one could dial down the speed-limit to zero and just skate on the barrier for as long as you could hold your breath. But that makes matters even worse, as you would drop everything you're holding (and if it was encompassed inside the barrier, you wouldn't be able to shoot).
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:43 PM   #28
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Default Re: [UT] Help! Future Combat Revolving Around Ultra-Tech Stabbery

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Then one could dial down the speed-limit to zero and just skate on the barrier for as long as you could hold your breath.
Oh my, you've just reinvented how combat in the new Tribes looks.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:53 PM   #29
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Default Re: [UT] Help! Future Combat Revolving Around Ultra-Tech Stabbery

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Oh boy oh boy, that was fast!
Dismantling setting assumptions is something we do around here.
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Regarding that last part about powerful weapons, I assumed one couldn't exactly field something that would reliably cause 80+ damage and still be man-portable, convenient, accurate and have multiple uses.
Well, unless I'm misunderstanding Ablative DR badly, it's easy enough with a TL9 Storm Carbine. Bulk -4, 7dpi+ damage, RoF 10.

I shoot you and get three hits the first round, 21d damage, average 74. Your DR100 barrier has 26 points left. Next turn, it recovers 10 points, giving it 36. I shoot you again, and get three more hits. The first knocks 24 off, leaving 12, the second does 25 so 13 get through, and inflict 18 points of damage after the wounding modifier, the third one is against no DR and does you 36 after wounding modifier.

I appreciate that this isn't rule-of-cool, but you do need some in-setting reason why it doesn't work or won't be done.

Edit: Notes: I've taken average damage and rounded the half up and down on alternate hits. Please note that I have not used any of the fancy UT options like ETC - they just make it easier.

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Old 01-20-2013, 01:25 PM   #30
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Default Re: [UT] Help! Future Combat Revolving Around Ultra-Tech Stabbery

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Dismantling setting assumptions is something we do around here.

Well, unless I'm misunderstanding Ablative DR badly, it's easy enough with a TL9 Storm Carbine. Bulk -4, 7dpi+ damage, RoF 10.

I shoot you and get three hits the first round, 21d damage, average 74. Your DR100 barrier has 26 points left. Next turn, it recovers 10 points, giving it 36. I shoot you again, and get three more hits. The first knocks 24 off, leaving 12, the second does 25 so 13 get through, and inflict 18 points of damage after the wounding modifier, the third one is against no DR and does you 36 after wounding modifier.

I appreciate that this isn't rule-of-cool, but you do need some in-setting reason why it doesn't work or won't be done.

Edit: Notes: I've taken average damage and rounded the half up and down on alternate hits. Please note that I have not used any of the fancy UT options like ETC - they just make it easier.
Pretty much any non-vehicle defence in UT breaks down if you throw enough Storm Carbines at it. :P

Still, even with that weapon, six shots were needed instead of one. And getting six shots in a row on target, especially from a weapon with such high Rcl, isn't easy. Even if range penalties are low, as they would be indoors, the target could act on its turn without shock penalty, and disappear behind the corner. In either case, "one-shot kill" becomes a myth.

Even without ETC and ETK (which I don't plan on using; I don't see how they could increase damage without dislocating the user's shoulder, they strike me as gamey "bonuses" for a higher TL), ablative DR seems to be weak against high-volume-of-fire weapons. I previously toyed with the thought of using single-use metalstorm weapons that would be discarded immediately after whittling down an opponent's barrier before closing in for the kill, but metalstorm doesn't work well in small arms.
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