Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-19-2017, 11:57 AM   #11
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: A sack of DFRPG questions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinl View Post

In my experience, this goes two ways - either there is absolute trust and co-operation within the group, or at least for Mr. Moneybags, and the ability to get better prices on loot is just a small subset of the benefits. Co-operation without suspicion is just a powerful tool, period. (As Kromm mentions, it is less important to group success than having a good & trustworthy healer.)
Total and essentially unquestioned cooperation is hugely powerful, yes. It makes a bigger difference than "character builds" to overall success. (Those who play GURPS will understand it when I say this: "It's like having a gang of equally powerful Allies around constantly, meaning each fellow party member effectively gives you a free 20-point power boost, or a 40-point one if we treat the inevitable meta-game connection as de facto Summonable.")

In the specific case of finances, I see little game-balance problem with it (see below for the social problems). The truly powerful stuff – very fine rapiers ($10,000), suits of epic plate ($12,000), ironskin amulets ($28,720), Might items ($30,000 for +1 to ST), etc. – is just so costly that even a Very Wealthy delver with $20,000 won't be equipping the whole party with it. One or two such items are about as good a use of 30 points as anything else, and handing gewgaws off to friends rather than keeping them to compensate for the effectiveness lost by not having those 30 points in combat abilities . . . well, that level of team spirit is admirable!

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinl View Post

The other way is that someone gets resentful or suspicious, and suddenly it matters a LOT that only one PC owns all the stuff, but is significantly weaker at the murderizing part of the game...
And that can be bad.

If the wealthy person who equips everyone ends up on the other side of an argument with those who carry the equipment, and tries to give orders or ask for the gear back, the likely outcome is a forceful "no" to Moneybags – or worse, the assassination of Moneybags. There's no upside to that, as it most likely leaves Moneybags' player upset and ruins the game for all. And if Moneybags' player was complicit in a scheme to equip allies, get assassinated or otherwise die, and create a replacement character who's useful in other ways . . . well, that's very skeevy and likely to upset the GM and also ruin the game for all.

There's no easy fix for this.

"No loans!" is heavy-handed, difficult to explain, and liable to be yet another way to upset people and ruin the game. The fairest method is probably to give a voice to Moneybags' "excellent financial connections in town." If Moneybags is assassinated, they'll make it impossible to buy and sell in town, and might send well-armed repo critters. If Moneybags is merely given no say in how the gear is used, Moneybags might be able to pull strings that mean the others had better like that gear, because once again, they can't buy and sell in town. Making these potential consequences known ahead of time, before any loaning happens, is reasonably fair and not too heavy-handed.

Ultimately, though, "Don't be a jerk!" and "Know your fellow players!" are the only sure-fire solutions.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My LiveJournal [Just GURPS News][Just The Company]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2017, 12:51 PM   #12
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: A sack of DFRPG questions!

Again though, I really don't see how this party is getting past the first encounter in order to ever benefit from this. I suppose that instead of cash, Moneybags could start with enough gear for an entire party that just coincidentally matches the needs of his new naked friends but even then they'll need to equip in the midst of a fight (though honestly I would be inclined to have him pick gear without input from the other PCs in that case).
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2017, 01:30 PM   #13
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: A sack of DFRPG questions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post

Again though, I really don't see how this party is getting past the first encounter in order to ever benefit from this. I suppose that instead of cash, Moneybags could start with enough gear for an entire party that just coincidentally matches the needs of his new naked friends but even then they'll need to equip in the midst of a fight (though honestly I would be inclined to have him pick gear without input from the other PCs in that case).
The DFRPG (which is the subject of this forum) supposes that starting gear and money are "just there" – there's no need to shop for it, so you can start your first adventure at once. While it might be amusing to mess with the players, it would probably be best not to. Remember that while GURPS is a full-spectrum RPG, the DFRPG sets aside social complexities to get to the action. Honestly, I see nothing wrong with everybody pooling their money and starting with whatever they all agree to spend it on. Even if you include social complexities, they might be a long-established mercenary unit with a successful captain, family with a rich matriarch or patriarch, criminal crew with a wealthy mastermind, etc., and the first adventure is merely the first "on screen" adventure in a longstanding association.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My LiveJournal [Just GURPS News][Just The Company]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2017, 01:51 PM   #14
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: A sack of DFRPG questions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
The DFRPG (which is the subject of this forum) supposes that starting gear and money are "just there" – there's no need to shop for it, so you can start your first adventure at once.
Even in the case of Dead Broke characters?

Quote:
While it might be amusing to mess with the players, it would probably be best not to. Remember that while GURPS is a full-spectrum RPG, the DFRPG sets aside social complexities to get to the action. Honestly, I see nothing wrong with everybody pooling their money and starting with whatever they all agree to spend it on. Even if you include social complexities, they might be a long-established mercenary unit with a successful captain, family with a rich matriarch or patriarch, criminal crew with a wealthy mastermind, etc., and the first adventure is merely the first "on screen" adventure in a longstanding association.
In which case Dead Broke isn't as much of a disadvantage (only affecting your selling ability) and shouldn't be worth as much, IMO.

Edit: If this does work, the really Munchkin way for arbitrary amounts of starting wealth would be:
  1. Go off template and make a party patron without any useful adventuring skills and tons of money.
  2. Give away all your money and equip the rest of the party.
  3. Retire the your character.
  4. Repeat the above N times.
  5. Make a new character who can sell stuff but still adventure competently.
  6. Then start the first adventure.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 10-19-2017 at 01:59 PM.
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2017, 01:57 PM   #15
scimon
 
scimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Kent, England
Default Re: A sack of DFRPG questions!

Ah but the dead broke character also has to put up with the watch questioning him all the time. Plus of course your PC's have basically given themselves the job of bodyguards... And every thief in town knows who the whale is.

Plus I don't think you can get Signature Gear for things you were gifted. (At least not for a while anyway).
__________________
"If it's not broke... hit it again."
"There's only so much Munchkin a man can demo."
EX MIB. Kent, England.
scimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2017, 02:02 PM   #16
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: A sack of DFRPG questions!

Yeah, I am not inclined to let money or gear change hands before play starts, regardless of what Kromm says. Otherwise every party could just start with infinite wealth.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 10-19-2017 at 02:08 PM.
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2017, 02:10 PM   #17
scimon
 
scimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Kent, England
Default Re: A sack of DFRPG questions!

Dunno about infinite unless you do the trick I used to do in Bards Tale where I created lots of party members. Looted them, kicked them from the party and carried on going.

That I'd crack down on.
__________________
"If it's not broke... hit it again."
"There's only so much Munchkin a man can demo."
EX MIB. Kent, England.
scimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2017, 02:14 PM   #18
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: A sack of DFRPG questions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by scimon View Post
Dunno about infinite unless you do the trick I used to do in Bards Tale where I created lots of party members. Looted them, kicked them from the party and carried on going.
Yeah that's what I am taking about.
Quote:
That I'd crack down on.
"You have to play the first concept you think of! No changing your mind!" seems significantly less fun then "No trading before the game starts" (which honestly is how most people play anyway, I think).
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2017, 02:18 PM   #19
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: A sack of DFRPG questions!

Dead Broke means what it says by "You start with nothing but rags to wear." Your rich patron friend would have to hand you gear and hope it's useful to you, because you start with nothing other than those rags. Other PCs start with whatever their cash and points can scare up, however weird or hard to find it might be; you do not.

Signature Gear must be paid for normally using "some combination of Starting Money and Extra Money." Neither of those is "I got it from a friend" – or for that matter, "I got it from a quest-giver." So yes, starting with nothing also deprives you of that option, though the players of characters who start with nothing rarely plan to depend on a vital piece of equipment that needs insurance.

And since you start with nothing, you can forget about starting play with a Weapon Bond to "any weapon you can afford," because you can afford nothing.

It might seem a gray zone whether "start with" should be read this stringently for Dead Broke delvers, but that was intended sense of the words. If you start Dead Broke, you start with zip, nada, rien. Your friends can promptly set you up with gear, but you won't have Signature Gear or Weapon Bond for it, and they'll actually have to transfer it from their character sheet to yours in play.

So while I wouldn't go so far as to make Dead Broke worth fewer points, I would say that in addition to "You cannot trade points for cash," there's an implicit "If your friends equip you, they must do so in play."
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My LiveJournal [Just GURPS News][Just The Company]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2017, 02:22 PM   #20
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: A sack of DFRPG questions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
So while I wouldn't go so far as to make Dead Broke worth fewer points, I would say that in addition to "You cannot trade points for cash," there's an implicit "If your friends equip you, they must do so in play."
Okay now I am totally confused. What does "in-play" mean in this context if it doesn't mean "after the first adventure begins"?
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.