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Old 07-03-2015, 02:47 AM   #41
Sindri
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Default Re: Wheellocks and Flintlocks

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Of course they don't because digital watches aren't clock work, and we value digital stuff by different metrics? (just as they did guns)
Yes. It's not a feature of "watches" it's a feature of "clockwork" and clockwork covers other things, like wheellocks.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Now you still have answered how that extra functionality can be shown with wheel locks.
I have never attempted to, and need not do so.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Saying wheel locks are clock work is a bit abstract to be meaningless. Its not particularly complex clock work so no real scope to have impressive workings in the context of complex clockwork workings. It actually juts a gun with a different trigger mechanism. An inherently simpler thing than a watch.
It's not meaningless at all. They are derived from clockwork technology, also require skilled workers to produce and allow more room for the crafter to showcase his technical skill than a flintlock does.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
One that was surpassed pretty quickly and had no scope to up it game with extra functionality
Uh, no. No one has come up with something that fits within the granularity of the game. Despite not needing any technical advantages at all faster ignition is totally the sort of thing people will point to as making a technology the correct choice for discerning users who are willing to spare the expense if there aren't other things that make it unsuitable.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
It also not like we don't have real life to judge them by, if their inherent nature was seen as intrinsically valuable above their utility as guns they would have lasted a bit longer, and well they didn't
If wheellocks don't have a significant downside for the wealthy all that is necessary for their continued presence is for it to be plausible for them to have grown attached to them given the right circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Branding based on internal complexity still has to draw attention to it, and justify why it is a good thing.
No it doesn't. It just needs to allow people to distinguish between items with varying reputation for quality.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Don't think anyone has said that have they? Also you haven't addressed the point.
There never was a point to begin with. The status of exterior decorations is completely irrelevant because it doesn't interact with the mechanism, nor would being paramount mean that gaucheness isn't a thing if people haven't yet started replacing random things with solid gold.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
OK, but since the end result is the same, your going to have to come up with some reason whey weellocks are seen as specifically more worth of status.
Reasons have been produced. You apparently have problems with them and I'm responding to your comments regarding them. Please don't take that to mean that the subject of the thread is "can wheellocks coexist with flintlocks and if so, how". The subject at the start was finding small details to differentiate more the various weapons in the wheellocks and flintlocks category and I remain interested in hearing different perspectives on that. I'm also interested in the ideas being generated regarding other alternate lock technologies.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
you've already said your setting up your society to inherently see that as a draw
I'm not envisioning a society with a particular obsession for clockwork. It's just a more difficult mechanism to make.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
But TBH I don't actually get your point as the post I was responding to was talking about difference in mechanism costs.
Your post was talking about proportionality. However proportionality doesn't matter in this context. It isn't how people make decisions in terms of status items.

Last edited by Sindri; 07-03-2015 at 02:52 AM.
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Old 07-03-2015, 05:03 AM   #42
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Wheellocks and Flintlocks

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
Yes. It's not a feature of "watches" it's a feature of "clockwork" and clockwork covers other things, like wheellocks.
But clockwork is broad enough category that different things within it are assessed by different metrics.

And bringing in digital watches is very much relevant to watches and not to guns.



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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
I have never attempted to, and need not do so.
So again where the "more" that you implied existed?

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
It's not meaningless at all. They are derived from clockwork technology, also require skilled workers to produce and allow more room for the crafter to showcase his technical skill than a flintlock does.

So again as above show where that extra craft actually manifests in increased functionality. Otherwise you just have a complex difficult thing that adds no benefit compared to the simpler thing. to go back to my original point, complexity of design is not a inherent good thing if it doesn't come with anything in return.

So again where is the increased functionality given by the clockwork wheel lock?


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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
Uh, no. No one has come up with something that fits within the granularity of the game. Despite not needing any technical advantages at all faster ignition is totally the sort of thing people will point to as making a technology the correct choice for discerning users who are willing to spare the expense if there aren't other things that make it unsuitable.
So same point again, it's matter of functionality, so where is the improved functionality of wheellocks.

Remember clockwork got easier to make, the skills became more widespread as time went on, so the barriers to wheellocks lowered, so if they also came with a increase in functionality why did we not see their continued use?

Flintlocks came in after wheellocks and during the period when wheellocks would have been getting easier to produce.



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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
If wheellocks don't have a significant downside for the wealthy all that is necessary for their continued presence is for it to be plausible for them to have grown attached to them given the right circumstances.
I agree, but since that didn't happen we can either assume that there was either some downside, or those circumstances didn't occur



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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
No it doesn't. It just needs to allow people to distinguish between items with varying reputation for quality.
yes but the reputation has to be established and maintained by being their. Remember we're talking about a very small market here. And ultimately we get back to the same point, reliability is aspect fo functionality, again where is the advantage that wheel locks enjoy over flint locks.



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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
There never was a point to begin with. The status of exterior decorations is completely irrelevant because it doesn't interact with the mechanism, .
That only true if we accept you inherent point that status was irrevocably linked to the internal mechanisms, and you have not demonstrated that is the case. We know decoration was however a key component of an objects status. Even if we did accept you assertion that still wouldn't make it either or, but decoration and mechanism

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
nor would being paramount mean that gaucheness isn't a thing if people haven't yet started replacing random things with solid gold.
hate to break it to you but when ever and where ever they could they did



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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
Reasons have been produced. You apparently have problems with them and I'm responding to your comments regarding them. Please don't take that to mean that the subject of the thread is "can wheellocks coexist with flintlocks and if so, how". The subject at the start was finding small details to differentiate more the various weapons in the wheellocks and flintlocks category and I remain interested in hearing different perspectives on that. I'm also interested in the ideas being generated regarding other alternate lock technologies.
Sorry so far you reason seem to be limited to "because clockwork" and vague allusions to things below GURPS level granularity without actually going into much detail.

We've discussed clockwork but you seem unwilling to address the point about clock work in the different contexts it was used in (watches vs guns)



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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
I'm not envisioning a society with a particular obsession for clockwork. It's just a more difficult mechanism to make.
OK, it's just that by itself is not reason for increased status (I mean it can be part of it, but it normally comes with other factors, and is context specific)

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
Your post was talking about proportionality. However proportionality doesn't matter in this context. It isn't how people make decisions in terms of status items.
No teh point you were making was: "wheel locks were more expensive than flint locks (being clock work), more expensive things are higher status, ergo wheel locks were higher status than flint locks."

My point was: "but given the all the extra costs of the decoration on top of each, the actually difference in price due to the mechanism is minuscule in comparison to the actual overall cost of the gun. So ergo any increases in status directly derived from different costs of the underlying mechanism in equally minuscule."

So inherent cost not relevant, so we come back to functionality
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Old 07-03-2015, 07:56 AM   #43
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Wheellocks and Flintlocks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
Uh, no. No one has come up with something that fits within the granularity of the game. Despite not needing any technical advantages at all faster ignition is totally the sort of thing people will point to as making a technology the correct choice for discerning users who are willing to spare the expense if there aren't other things that make it unsuitable.



If wheellocks don't have a significant downside for the wealthy all that is necessary for their continued presence is for it to be plausible for them to have grown attached to them given the right circumstances.

.
Where did faster ignition come in? There's no increase in ignition speed until you get to percussion caps.

I do think wheel-locks have significant disadvantages and it is not at all plausible that they would remain in production for long after flintlocks became available,

Note that if I was a player in this game I might not argue with you more than once about it not making sense but I'd never believe it was true.
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Old 07-03-2015, 08:30 AM   #44
malloyd
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: Wheellocks and Flintlocks

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Where did faster ignition come in? There's no increase in ignition speed until you get to percussion caps.
Reality. All firearms actions have a delay between pulling the trigger and igniting the propellant, and since the invention of ultra-highspeed photography (and more recently microsecond electronic timers) there have gun enthusiasts who measure it. Except maybe for some kinds of cannon fuses it's never more than a few hundredths of a second, i.e. too short for humans to detect the differences, but that doesn't stop some of those enthusiasts from claiming one or the other action is better because its shorter, or more uniform, or more dependent on how you pull the trigger, or whatever.
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Old 07-03-2015, 09:19 AM   #45
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Wheellocks and Flintlocks

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Reality. .
I'd have called that "human belief" instead if reality.

There's actually an almost perceptible delay between the flash in the pan and the smoke coming out of the barrel. It's quite obvious on high speed film. It also goes away when percussion caps come in. It also gets you another 50 feet per second without making any other changes.

However, since all of the early lock types are identical from the pan to the barrel there's no speed difference between them.
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Old 07-03-2015, 09:26 AM   #46
malloyd
 
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Default Re: Wheellocks and Flintlocks

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I'd have called that "human belief" instead if reality.

However, since all of the early lock types are identical from the pan to the barrel there's no speed difference between them.
Sure there is. Time for a hammer to fall certainly can differ from time until the wheel is fast enough to throw sparks.
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Old 07-03-2015, 09:44 AM   #47
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Wheellocks and Flintlocks

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
I'm rather dubious about this. You're requiring the lock to do a lot more mechanical work than a flintlock or wheellock. Springs were some of the hard parts of those locks, and this is going to need stronger ones, which start to require real effort to cock. As for the ratchet for the piston - you're creating something approaching the ambition of a semi-automatic action, in an era of much worse materials, with everything made by hand. It's going to be expensive, dangerous, or both.
I misspoke (err, miswrote) when I wrote "ratchet." You wouldn't need anything nearly so advanced - a simple catch as is used to hold a crossbow string or similar should be sufficient. The trick would be to have it in the correct location (note that the piston coming back out isn't in and of itself a serious concern - rather, there's the risk of it coming back out with sufficient force that it breaks free, which will cause you to vent pressure rather than propelling your bullet).

I've been doing a bit of research on fire pistons. First off, you can determine what temperature (in Celsius, assuming the ambient temperature is around 27 degrees - note it doesn't change too much for lower starting temperatures) the tender inside will reach based on the equation T=300*(Li/Lf)^(2/5)-273, where T is the temperature, Li is the initial length of the cylinder of air in the piston and Lf is the final length of the cylinder of air in the piston. I can't find the blasted "Semenov equation"/relationship that nearly every paper references, but apparently autoignition temperature (that is, the temperature at which an object ignites without the presence of an open flame/spark) actually decreases as pressure increases.

Black powder has an autoignition temperature between 200C and 464C. Nitrocellulose apparently has an autoignition temperature around 220C, as does paper (putting a scrap of paper in with your black powder shouldn't be too difficult, so we'll assume 220C is the autoignition temperature of both propellants). So, 220=300*(Li/Lf)^(2/5)-273, or Li/Lf=3.5 (so we need around 70% compression). That's at 27C (80F) - 0C (32F) is going to be Li/Lf=4.4 (~78% compression). This ignores (because, as noted, I couldn't find the blasted equation) the effect of pressure on autoignition - you could probably get away with much less compression.

Regardless, you apparently only need compression of around 80% (5:1), while traditional fire pistons apparently tend to have a compression of around 96% (25:1), yet can be started with a simple slap. It seems that getting a spark out of flint and steel requires comparable force, and detonating mercury fulminate probably isn't far off, so I'd imagine the same springs that store enough force for flintlocks to work would suffice in detonating a fire piston powered firearm.

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
If wheellocks don't have a significant downside for the wealthy all that is necessary for their continued presence is for it to be plausible for them to have grown attached to them given the right circumstances.
Indeed. Probably the biggest thing that prevented this in our history was that there was only about a 40 year window between the wheellock and the snaplock being produced. That's really not enough time for wheellocks to become ingrained as a "noble's weapon." If there were 100 or more years between the two, you might have ended up with wheellocks gaining such status.

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Sure there is. Time for a hammer to fall certainly can differ from time until the wheel is fast enough to throw sparks.
There's also the fact that apparently the wheel produced sparks in much closer proximity to the pan than the hammer did - no need to wait for them to fall before the powder gets ignited. It's not really enough to be tactically significant, however.
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Old 07-03-2015, 09:55 AM   #48
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Wheellocks and Flintlocks

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Sure there is. Time for a hammer to fall certainly can differ from time until the wheel is fast enough to throw sparks.
The "wheel" on a wheel-lock only "turns" 90 degrees. It's basically the same distance as a flintlock's arm.
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Old 07-03-2015, 01:13 PM   #49
Sindri
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Default Re: Wheellocks and Flintlocks

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
But clockwork is broad enough category that different things within it are assessed by different metrics.
I disagree. I believe the metrics are the same.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
And bringing in digital watches is very much relevant to watches and not to guns.
I should hope so! I mentioned them in context to watches.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
So again where the "more" that you implied existed?
I have done no such thing.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
So again as above show where that extra craft actually manifests in increased functionality. Otherwise you just have a complex difficult thing that adds no benefit compared to the simpler thing. to go back to my original point, complexity of design is not a inherent good thing if it doesn't come with anything in return.
All it needs to do is give aesthetic pleasure. Any actual practical gains would be very small but also fundamentally irrelevant.

Nor is it necessary for wheellocks to have technical advantages to persist. They must merely have social advantages and not have technical disadvantages their users care about.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I agree, but since that didn't happen we can either assume that there was either some downside, or those circumstances didn't occur
The circumstances didn't occur! Obviously, if I wanted wheellocks to persist I would be doing things like tweaking relative dates of introduction and other factors. It's simply bizarre that you'd read "the right circumstances" as our circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
yes but the reputation has to be established and maintained by being their. Remember we're talking about a very small market here.
It's trivial to postulate that at least one company can manage to maintain quality standards enough for people to be able to signal their mechanisms quality externally.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
That only true if we accept you inherent point that status was irrevocably linked to the internal mechanisms, and you have not demonstrated that is the case.
Good thing I haven't attempted to do so, because trying that would be stupid. All that is necessary is for it to be plausible that the status of an item is associated with it's internal mechanism's quality, materials and difficulty to manufacture.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
te to break it to you but when ever and where ever they could they did
It seems my comment regarding slapping gold on things was appropriate then, because I would characterize what they did as decorating with gold not "yeah that thing? it's gold now".

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Sorry so far you reason seem to be limited to "because clockwork" and vague allusions to things below GURPS level granularity without actually going into much detail.
Then I encourage you to reread the thread, because you've clearly missed things.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
OK, it's just that by itself is not reason for increased status (I mean it can be part of it, but it normally comes with other factors, and is context specific)
All it needs to be is another factor.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
No teh point you were making was: "wheel locks were more expensive than flint locks (being clock work), more expensive things are higher status, ergo wheel locks were higher status than flint locks."

My point was: "but given the all the extra costs of the decoration on top of each, the actually difference in price due to the mechanism is minuscule in comparison to the actual overall cost of the gun. So ergo any increases in status directly derived from different costs of the underlying mechanism in equally minuscule."

So inherent cost not relevant, so we come back to functionality
More proportionality.

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Where did faster ignition come in? There's no increase in ignition speed until you get to percussion caps.
At the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I do think wheel-locks have significant disadvantages and it is not at all plausible that they would remain in production for long after flintlocks became available,
Which I have agreed with. High Malf makes a weapon unsuitable, Lower HT could work but makes things very difficult. Thus "if". What's being objected to here is that there are any pressures that could push wheellocks to persist, not that the net pressure is for them to stop being produced.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I can't find the blasted "Semenov equation"/relationship that nearly every paper references,
Is this

http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/TheSemenovModel/

Helpful?
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