Adding a Template to a Character

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by ArchonShiva

The entire idea of taking a new template is to access those abilities you *can’t* buy otherwise, such as Heroic Archer.

That's already covered under Exceptional Training and the optional Training Expenses sidebar (Exploits pg 93).

Originally Posted by Kromm

It's up to the GM, who can permit anybody to take anything. My feeling is that it's kind of unfair to let somebody just pick and choose from two sets of special traits, and exploit two sets of exceptional limits on their abilities. But that's just me!

Eh, I see nothing unfair about it if everyone is allowed to do it.

It's certainly less advantageous* for some combinations (spellcasters mixing in another spellcasting Profession), but that's all down to Player choice in my book.


* And ludicrously overpowering in some combos† (especially if some DF Proffesions are brought in and the game goes long enough...) but that's a whole nother kettle of fish.


† Elven Scholar-Wizard at 500+ character points I'm looking at you.... granted his buddy the Ogre Barbarian-Knight (or Ogre Barbarian-Martial Artist) is also standing like right there...

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

That's already covered under Exceptional Training and the optional Training Expenses sidebar (Exploits pg 93).

Which makes it very clear that you can't buy things that only exist on someone elses template...

[Colarmel]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Which makes it very clear that you can't buy things that only exist on someone elses template...

The sidebar on p. 93 mentions adding Trained By A Master for 30 points and $2400.

That only exists on one template, and that template requires it at creation.

It's not something anyone can just do at any time, but it is absolutely an option given in the book.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Which makes it very clear that you can't buy things that only exist on someone elses template...

I'm gonna be 'that guy' and ask you to please quote the relevant passage as I don't think the text means what you think it means.


Explicitly given are two ways to get other Profession only advantages (Exceptional Training and Supernatural Modifications, pg 93-94), as well as the optional Training Expenses sidebar which expands into "and now it also costs money!"

[Harald387]

Originally Posted by Colarmel

The sidebar on p. 93 mentions adding Trained By A Master for 30 points and $2400.

That only exists on one template, and that template requires it at creation.

It's not something anyone can just do at any time, but it is absolutely an option given in the book.

That same sidebar also notes that it is "always Exceptional Training", which from the non-sidebar text under that header requires the training be part of the adventure, made available specifically by GM decree.

This is not 'I'd like to buy Trained by a Master, here's $2400, I know Kung Fu'. This is the GM saying 'Okay, you have adventured through the Halls of the Mountain King, Climbed the Twelve Thousand Steps, and slain the Dragon That Never Sleeps in the Temple of the Four Winds; the sifu at the temple is willing to teach you Trained by a Master'.

The GM can decide that this sort of exceptional training is readily available instead - the GM can decide to make anything available or not available - but just because the text says something can be bought in the right circumstances does not mean the default is that the circumstances are right.

[Colarmel]

Sure. It's not, "Go for it, get what you want, as long as you've got $80/pt." But neither does it say you can never get anything exclusive to someone else's template.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Colarmel

Sure. It's not, "Go for it, get what you want, as long as you've got $80/pt." But neither does it say you can never get anything exclusive to someone else's template.

Yeah. I take it as "If you're being strict about the RAW" then if a PC wants something only available to another Profession (like a Knight wanting to buy Heroic Archer) then they have to do some quest or some such to earn that privilege.

[ArchonShiva]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Yeah. I take it as "If you're being strict about the RAW" then if a PC wants something only available to another Profession (like a Knight wanting to buy Heroic Archer) then they have to do some quest or some such to earn that privilege.

To some of us, that sounds like being lax about RAW. At any rate, the point is, your way means you have to stretch RAW either yo the edge or slightly past it to even qualify for it, whereas Kromm’s was makes it available to everyone.

EDIT: The key difference is that by RAW, it’s a GM-driven decision to add an option, such as Kromm suggesting healing abilities for druids and martial artists. What you suggest is a player-driven request, which comes with a fake cost of adventuring, the thing players would be doing anyway, but requiring extra work from the GM, unless he just goes “Okay, fine, I’ll add a Kung-Fu master to the cells one level two.”

[Kromm]

The debate is unwinnable.

There are those who feel that if you want to spread your character points around, that's your call – you have x points, and it's up to you whether you place them all on one bet, hedge your bets, etc. For them, characters are like visiting pubs: Have a beer here or have a beer there. Buy three cheap drinks instead of one expensive one. All that matters is that you can afford to pay the bartender.

There are those who feel that there needs to be a premium to enter a niche, to keep that niche distinctive, even exclusive. You have x points, but now your choices are constrained by minimum buy-ins and career paths. For them, characters are like joining private clubs: You have to be this rich and take out a membership. There may be a waiting list. And belonging to a rival club just isn't done. Only once you're finally in can you buy a drink, though it may cost no more than at the pub.

The first group sees the second as needlessly snobby and exclusionist: "If I have the points, I should be able to spend them as I please. If I spread them too thin, that's my problem and nobody else's!" The second group sees the first as lazy and irresponsible: "We each have our ordained role to fill, and if we don't stick to it, we're letting down the side with our lack of commitment." You're probably not going to find middle ground.

I lean toward the first in gaming in general.

However, in dungeon-crawl games I favor the second because I see dungeon crawls as commando raids by well-crafted teams of specialists, each of whom should be far along in a role. At, say, 350 points, there will be threats suited to those who can do their primary job at the 350-point level, so everybody had better punch at that weight. If one person is functioning closer to a 275-point knight, 150-point thief, and 160-point wizard (there's some overlap, of course!), they might be more broadly useful but they're not pulling their weight in any one role . . . and in the process, they're sitting in three niches, possible making two other players feel like they're sharing the spotlight too often. So I think it best to enforce a minimum standard and to require a specific path going forward.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by ArchonShiva

To some of us, that sounds like being lax about RAW.

Well... it's certainly lax about RAI. But as I'll mention just below, I disagree so fundamentally with RAI that I might be a bad example to listen to...

Originally Posted by Kromm

The debate is unwinnable.

Sure... and I play GURPS because I'm so firmly in camp one that I beat the drums and wave the flag for camp one endlessly.

Maybe too much. C'est la vie.