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Old 08-22-2019, 11:06 AM   #51
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Ironically WoW shows the major downside of levels - stuff that gave you problems at low levels is can now be one shotted with ease and you have to come out with all kinds of wacked out reasons as to why many of these guys are still a problem.
That's not a problem with levels, that's just a side effect of the power curve. Point-based games often have a higher base power level with less variance over the course of the campaign, but that's not an intrinsic feature of point based vs level based, it's just a game design decision.
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Old 08-22-2019, 07:22 PM   #52
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

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Moving 10 yards (7 yards for slow characters, 13 for fast ones), vying for an opening, and - in melee combat - throwing multiple attacks. Each attack roll in DnD is meant to represent multiple attacks*. Some miss, some “hit” (whatever that ends up meaning when dealing with abstract HP), and your damage roll represents how much of an impact all those “hits” had. If foes do something to expose themselves during this time (attack unarmed, move past you, cast spells, etc), you are likely to land more “hits” (in the form of Attacks of Opportunity). Ranged combat obviously involves only one actual attack per roll, as each attack only uses one piece of ammunition. This isn’t as slow as it sounds - a GURPS character who moves 10 yards, successfully Fast Draws an arrow and draws it, gets to maximum Aim, and attacks would actually take 7 seconds to pull that off (2 to move, 1 to nock the arrow, 3 to Aim, 1 to Attack).

*Edit: If you dislike the idea of multiple attacks per roll, consider DnD doesn’t have the equivalent of Evaluate - assume the characters Evaluate for 3 seconds prior to attacking, and all 6 seconds are accounted for.
The main problem with that explanation is it makes the base skill level of low level D&D character even more pathetic by GURPS standards. The one thing that I really like about 5e D&D is it got rid of the convoluted tables regarding hitting someone. AC = number you need to roll to "hit". Nice, sane, and simple and it roughly equates to GURPS' Dodge.

Better yet there is even some ideas on using a 3d6 rather then the d20 which makes comparison easier though it does change the dynamics of AC by a large margin.
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Old 08-23-2019, 03:32 AM   #53
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

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The main problem with that explanation is it makes the base skill level of low level D&D character even more pathetic by GURPS standards. The one thing that I really like about 5e D&D is it got rid of the convoluted tables regarding hitting someone. AC = number you need to roll to "hit". Nice, sane, and simple and it roughly equates to GURPS' Dodge.

Better yet there is even some ideas on using a 3d6 rather then the d20 which makes comparison easier though it does change the dynamics of AC by a large margin.
Doesn't help with ranged attacks much too.
But I've been playing D&D for about 30 years and I really don't worry about it, and AD&D was much worse, since rounds didn't last 6 seconds as far as I remember.
I don't remember convoluted tables for hitting someone, it's been like that since 3.0, unless you're talking about THAC0, but even then, it was a couple of numbers, not tables, that would be Rolemaster or similar games...

Edit regarding the HP issue: I would start by removing shock and penalties for low health. Remove the rolls for unconsciousness and replace death rolls with unconscious. But honestly, I'd be very wary of any change, since the rest of the rules support characters that don't want to get hit, but fall rather quicky if they are.

Last edited by Aldric; 08-23-2019 at 03:38 AM.
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Old 08-23-2019, 08:19 AM   #54
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

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Doesn't help with ranged attacks much too.
But I've been playing D&D for about 30 years and I really don't worry about it, and AD&D was much worse, since rounds didn't last 6 seconds as far as I remember.
They did.

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I don't remember convoluted tables for hitting someone, it's been like that since 3.0, unless you're talking about THAC0, but even then, it was a couple of numbers, not tables, that would be Rolemaster or similar games...
THAC0 had a chart for people who couldn't do the simple math.
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Old 08-23-2019, 10:09 AM   #55
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

As an anecdote, I ran a GURPS conversion of a D&D adventure I had previously played in D&D 5th edition. What struck me, after reflecting on how each games went, was how many of the combats played out very similarly. The only difference was that in D&D, it was "hit, damage, miss, hit, damage...." and in GURPS it was, "attack, defend, attack, defend, attack, hit, damage...".

This really hammered home the idea that D&D HP was really just a timescale for the battle, and reflected skill, luck, etc., not physical damage.

The real difference IMO, was that GURPS combat was more exciting. It didn't happen often, but there was always that chance that a lucky blow would end the combat early. This was way more interesting than just hammering on piles of HP, turn after turn. So, I am hesitant to ever add tons of HP to enemies.
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Old 08-23-2019, 11:49 AM   #56
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

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D
I don't remember convoluted tables for hitting someone, it's been like that since 3.0, unless you're talking about THAC0, but even then, it was a couple of numbers, not tables, that would be Rolemaster or similar games...
The convoluted charts were in AD&D 1e. They were sort of like the 2e THACO charts except when they got to ACs you needed a 20 to hit they repeated 5 times at 20 and then went up to 21s and higher. That's right. You didn't automatically hit on a 20.

That was only in the DMG. In the PHB they had some really complicated tables for weapon v. armor with individual modifiers for every weapon and every AC. Rolemaster was easy by comparison.



































































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Old 08-23-2019, 12:21 PM   #57
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

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Doesn't help with ranged attacks much too.
But I've been playing D&D for about 30 years and I really don't worry about it, and AD&D was much worse, since rounds didn't last 6 seconds as far as I remember.
They did.
Actually AD&D1 and 2 gave 1 minute as the length of a combat round:

"In adventuring below ground, a turn in the dungeon lasts 10 minutes (see also MOVEMENT). In combat, the turn is further divided into 10 melee rounds, or simply rounds. Rounds are subdivided into 10 segments, for purposes of determining initiative (q.v.) and order of attacks. Thus o turn is 10 minutes, a round 1 minute, and a segment 6 seconds." (PHB1 pg 39)

"Because a round is a full minute long, dexterity seldom is a factor in the determination of which side acts first" (PHB1 pg 104)

"The 1 minute melee round assumes much activity - rushes, retreats, feints, parries, checks, and so on." (PHB1 pg 105)

"A round is approximately one minute long. Ten combat rounds equal a turn" (PBH2 pg 122)

It wouldn't be until D&D 3.0 (in 2000) that this changed: "A round represents 6 seconds in the game world." (PHB3 pg 117)

Since the 6 second combat round has only been around at best for 19 years anyone with experience longer then that will have had to deal with the 1 minute combat round. A GURPS character would totally bury a AD&D 1-2 character.

Last edited by maximara; 08-23-2019 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 08-23-2019, 02:57 PM   #58
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

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The real difference IMO, was that GURPS combat was more exciting. It didn't happen often, but there was always that chance that a lucky blow would end the combat early.
Save or Die effects in D&D did the same thing. They're de-emphasized in recent editions because it turns out most gamers don't like them (it's a fine line between too much randomness and too little, but full to down between actions is usually deemed excessive).
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Old 08-23-2019, 03:33 PM   #59
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

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Actually AD&D1 and 2 gave 1 minute as the length of a combat round...
In my defense it's been 30 years since I've dealt with that particular rulesset.
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Old 08-23-2019, 05:06 PM   #60
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

I had forgotten how much 1e sucked. In GURPS, a skill 10 charter will hit a dodge 10 character 15 times in one minute (and get one critical success). To hit only once in a minute, a 1e character would have to possess skill 5 versus a dodge 10.
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