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Old 08-23-2018, 07:01 PM   #21
whswhs
 
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Default Re: QQ 8-12 fo

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Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
Hestia spent all her time tending the fire and becoming one of the few goddesses no one says anything bad about. She doesn't go in for idiotic stunts like trying to win a beauty contest against Aphrodite then getting in a huff because she can't. Saying she wasn't intelligent because she was a virgin who never got out of the house is kind of like saying Jane Austen wasn't intelligent. We simply have no way to tell her intelligence because no myths are remembered about her. We just know she never got into trouble.

Athena was unquestionably bright and is one of the ones that goes over better to a modern audience. She could do weird things on occasion.
Athena's one of the other Greek gods who's smarter than the average bear. Prometheus probably fits, too, though he might be argued to be more an antigod.

Hestia never does anything that gets stories told about it, so there's no evidence of her being smart, or dim, or much of anything. If we had a couple of novels or comedies written by her we might find evidence of wit. Or maybe something similar to Sei Shonagon's Pillow Book.
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Old 08-23-2018, 07:25 PM   #22
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Default Re: QQ 8-12 fo

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Athena's one of the other Greek gods who's smarter than the average bear. Prometheus probably fits, too, though he might be argued to be more an antigod.

Hestia never does anything that gets stories told about it, so there's no evidence of her being smart, or dim, or much of anything. If we had a couple of novels or comedies written by her we might find evidence of wit. Or maybe something similar to Sei Shonagon's Pillow Book.
I did come across a few references to Hestia being a peacemaker, part of her being the goddess of hearth and home. I'd probably just give her a normal IQ and a Talent to cover the stuff she was good at (Cooking, Housekeeping, Diplomacy, Professional Skill: Cheese-Making, etc.), however.
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:03 PM   #23
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Default Re: Gods and Demigods - not really that smart

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When does Aphrodite do anything even as smart as a smart human, let alone superhumanly smart? "I can imagine that she might be as smart as X" doesn't seem like evidence.
You can be IQ 40 and still be foolish if you have Lecherousness 6-. Like in real life wisdom and intelligence do not necessarily correlate in GURPS. Let me reverse the question, when was Aphrodite fooled by a mortal except when it came to sex?
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:12 PM   #24
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Default Re: Gods and Demigods - not really that smart

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You can be IQ 40 and still be foolish if you have Lecherousness 6-. Like in real life wisdom and intelligence do not necessarily correlate in GURPS. Let me reverse the question, when was Aphrodite fooled by a mortal except when it came to sex?
I don't recall a story where a mortal tries to fool Aphrodite. Can you cite one? There is the story where Hephaistos trapped her and Ares in bed together, and they didn't spot the net he had set up as a trap; that doesn't evidence her being amazingly brilliant.

The broader point, though, is that you are saying, "Prove that Aphrodite wasn't brilliant." You haven't introduced any evidence to show that she WAS brilliant. As far as I can tell it's pure speculation on your part. Yes, Aphrodite's Lecherousness, or her Jealousy (also in evidence in some stories), could lead a highly intelligent person to make bad decisions; but it could also lead an average or subnormal person to do so. So it has no evidential value with regard to how smart she is.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:31 PM   #25
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Default Re: Gods and Demigods - not really that smart

My point is the gods are beyond human attributes, they are defined by their passions, and no human can hope to compete with them except through exploiting their passions. Any god will win a contest of anything against a human, whether they are Athena or Zeus, because they have probabily altering powers as well as having superhuman attributes. Their attributes really only matter when compared to other deities because humans are not a challenge.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:42 PM   #26
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Default Re: Gods and Demigods - not really that smart

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My point is the gods are beyond human attributes, they are defined by their passions, and no human can hope to compete with them except through exploiting their passions. Any god will win a contest of anything against a human, whether they are Athena or Zeus, because they have probabily altering powers as well as having superhuman attributes. Their attributes really only matter when compared to other deities because humans are not a challenge.
Why would all gods have superhuman IQ and probability altering powers?

Also, even if that was the case, their attributes could still matter against mortals depending on the situational modifiers for the contest.

Last edited by Andreas; 08-23-2018 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:54 PM   #27
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Default Re: Gods and Demigods - not really that smart

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My point is the gods are beyond human attributes, they are defined by their passions, and no human can hope to compete with them except through exploiting their passions. Any god will win a contest of anything against a human, whether they are Athena or Zeus, because they have probabily altering powers as well as having superhuman attributes. Their attributes really only matter when compared to other deities because humans are not a challenge.
That still doesn't show that they have superhuman intelligence, let alone superhuman GURPS IQ. I don't see how we can judge that, except through narratives about them, which don't show them as being that much smarter than humans are. With exceptions, of course, such as Athena (the goddess of WISDOM), Odin (the god of WISDOM, magic, and war), Prometheus (the titan who embodies FORETHOUGHT), Thoth (the god of KNOWLEDGE), and some others like them. Their divine remits have to do with being smart; gods with other remits don't seem have that quality.

This argument of Aphrodite really being incredibly smart, but having it concealed by her always being in the grip of lecherousness, sounds like the White Knight's song:

But I was thinking of a plan
To dye one's whiskers green
And always use so large a fan
That they could not be seen

Besides, the argument that a failed Lecherousness roll would result in unintelligent behavior doesn't necessarily follow. A smart person who is filled with sexual passion is likely to approach the matter differently than a dim one. Maybe they'll write Petrarchean sonnet cycles, or come up with elaborate philosophical rationalizations for free love, or make a close study of human sexual behavior, or go out to earn a fortune and become a desirable mate, depending on what they're smart about. They have a range of options for seeking gratification that a less smart person doesn't have, and there's no reason to suppose they wouldn't use them. And similarly, a smart murderously violent person would not use such crude methods as a dim one. Nothing in the GURPS definitions of those traits forbids a person acting on the basis of a failed self-control roll to use their IQ and skills to come up with methods that are actually likely to work!
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:21 PM   #28
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Default Re: Gods and Demigods - not really that smart

I might build gods as two closely associated beings: the avatar, which is the part with personality, mental disadvantages, and a defined form, and the divinity, which is essentially indestructable and posesses the ability to know all/see all etc.

The divinity has IQ 20+, and uses it when miracles call for superhuman cognition, but the avatar doesn't have direct access to those smarts.
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Old 08-24-2018, 12:48 AM   #29
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Default Re: Gods and Demigods - not really that smart

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Odin has IQ 13 (Per & Will 30)
I can't think of any myth where Odin is outwitted, even by Loki.

Odin is a god of death, as well as insight, foreknowledge and battle-wisdom.

High IQ, plus precognition and other powers seem appropriate.

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Zeus, as far as I know, is not one for consistently clever or well thought out plans.
Zeus led the war that overthrew the Titans. He tricked Cronus into disgorging his brothers and sisters allowing them to participate in the rebellion.

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Gods of myth often have inferior social and tactical skills compared to humans, but deep knowledge into things mortals don't.
The gods of myth also lost the war for human worship to the God of Abraham. The victors write the history, and most of the stories of Greek, Roman, Norse and other gods have been skewed by the lens of the Church... or simply appropriated outright.

Look at the image of God on the Sistine Chapel. Then look up an image of Zeus. Notice anything?

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if I want to model Ares or Thor IQ 20 is not a good choice
Gods of myth are inhumanly intelligent. They know Things Man Was Not Meant to Know... but they also are ruled by their disadvantages.

Thor isn't stupid... but he is overconfident.

Ares isn't stupid, but he does have Bloodlust and is arguably Cowardly.

Tyr isn't stupid... but he is Honest, Truthful, has a Code of Honor and is One Handed.

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demigod might have something like ST 30 HT 20 DX 20 IQ 20
I would argue that for most demi-gods of myth stats closer to the human norm are appropriate. There's no indication that Perseus, Achilles, etc are completely beyond the realm of human ability.

Lesser gods or average gods not known for trickery or wisdom might have IQ 16... Thor for example... still subject to critical failures.

An average god or lesser god known for wisdom or guile might have IQ 18, no failure on a normal roll without some disadvantage in play. Freyja, is a lesser god known for her guile and insight. Helios, the all seeing, fits here.

A greater god, or an average god known for wisdom and insight might have IQ 20-22. Athena, for example is a middling god but known for education, wisdom and battle tactics. Loki fits here, known for his trickery.

A greater god known for wisdom, insight or foreknowledge would be 24-26-ish. Odin, Zeus, Tyr all fit here.

However, I think the best course is not to stat up gods at all. Any true god is so far above mortals that giving them stats is pointless and even counter productive.

Why would you quantify divinity?

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PCs might trick them? A veritable net positive.
I can't think of too many myths where humans tricking, or worse insulting, gods ends well for the humans... and humans are the ones making up the stories.

At best if a human outwits Coyote or Raven they get a pat on the head. Tricking Loki generally has more dire consequences... and insulting Aphrodite gets your daughter fed to the Kraken.

Last edited by tanksoldier; 08-24-2018 at 01:25 AM.
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Old 08-24-2018, 05:29 AM   #30
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Default Re: Gods and Demigods - not really that smart

The myths where humans 'trick' gods tend to result in a series of events that indirectly accomplish the goals of the 'tricked' god, so it could be claimed that being 'tricked' gives a god plausible deniability. A god could say to other gods that they did not interfere with mortal affairs, but the mortal who 'tricked' them just happened to destroy the individual/family/city/nation who insulted the god in question before suffering a terrible fate of their own. When it comes to gods, it can be impossible to determine who tricked who.

Imagine a campaign where the PCs hear of a wonderous treasure of a god in a temple, and they decide to steal it. When they arrive at the temple, they encounter not mortal servants but the god itself who, despite being terrifying, they are capable of tricking and manage to win the treasure. Unknown to them though, they were being tested and have been put onto a trajectory where they are the unwitting agents of the god in question, who washes their hands of them after subtly guiding them in the right direction during their encounter. If the GM is especially mean, they will have to the god reappear at the end of the campaign, take back the treasure from the PCs easily as an adult takes candy from a baby, and thank them for their help before inflicting upon them a curse for their hubris which will trigger the next stage of the god's master plan.
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