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Old 05-08-2017, 08:02 PM   #31
Kalzazz
 
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

Yeah, I'm fine with a 'not purpose built' weapon having the same raw damage as a 'purpose built' weapon when the purpose built weapon has other advantages (such as swords being cutting and balanced, spears impaling etc), though say an axe (unbalanced) or a mace (unbalanced and crushing) would seem would do more damage . . . since in particular the mace its bonus compared to swords is 'does more damage'

In general the advantage to Throwing a weapon is you can hit things you can't melee with, so I admit I'd be hesitant to think throwing weapons should do more damage than meleeing with them . . . . though I'd be fine with 'you get extra damage when you throw the weapon in melee range', since well, yeah, in that case you are giving stuff up without getting something in exchange, so getting a benefit in exchange seems fair

As a note, I would allow Thrown Weapon (Spear) or (Dart) to cover I-Beams thrown point first, or Throwing Stick to cover them thrown spinning end over end

But yeah, Id impose improvised weapons on such
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Old 05-08-2017, 08:27 PM   #32
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

I can see how some weapons would do more damage when thrown.

If they're too unwieldy to accurately hit with in melee (say, a car), then they'd be a poor melee weapon, but, they'd be a superior missile. Even an I-Beam would be a good missile as it's solid, not really built for gripping and solid enough to stay together on impact (cars should do fragmentation damage on impact . . .).

Something like a man-hole cover should be devastating as a thrown weapon--far superior to using it as a melee weapon.
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Old 05-08-2017, 08:59 PM   #33
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
Won't doing damage according to the usual collision/Slam rules mean that characters with higher log ST will eventually be doing orders of magnitude more damage with thrown objects than with hand to hand?
Well, step 2 is to increase hand to hand damage to match.
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:25 PM   #34
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
I don't understand why this doesn't make sense.

I can lift a 100 pound dumbell with one hand. I doubt I could throw it 10 feet much less 60.
I seriously doubt 100 lbs is less than your BL. It's probably encumbering you more than a little.
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:31 PM   #35
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

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As a further addendum, I did calculate thrown distance from the old ST (or, more specifically x^((LogST+10)/20) rounded to the nearest number. As it didn't make any sense for someone who could lift a van with one hand could barely throw it 20 yards.
Actually, 20 yards is excessive. Rule of thumb for throwing is that range will be equal to (distance arm moves during throw) * (force / object weight) * 2. Assuming your arm moves a yard during the throw, and your max 1 handed force is BLx3, that gives a throwing distance of 6 yards.
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Old 05-09-2017, 11:07 AM   #36
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

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Actually, 20 yards is excessive. Rule of thumb for throwing is that range will be equal to (distance arm moves during throw) * (force / object weight) * 2. Assuming your arm moves a yard during the throw, and your max 1 handed force is BLx3, that gives a throwing distance of 6 yards.
As this is a rule of thumb, it really doesn't apply to supers. We have no experience with them, and it would be horribly inaccurate with them. Additionally, as a Supers rule of thumb, you see strong supers throwing massive things great distances, which is more important here than anything applicable to the real world.

A baseball weighs, roughly, 1/3 of a pound. A baseball player with a ST of 12 (Not an unreasonable ST for a baseball player) could throw that ball . . . 522 yards. Which would be 1,044 mph.

I think there's something wrong with the application of your rule of thumb.

This is supers.
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Old 05-09-2017, 11:15 AM   #37
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

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Originally Posted by Mark Skarr View Post
As this is a rule of thumb, it really doesn't apply to supers. We have no experience with them, and it would be horribly inaccurate with them. Additionally, as a Supers rule of thumb, you see strong supers throwing massive things great distances, which is more important here than anything applicable to the real world.
All you need to throw things enormous distances is to have a whole lot of excess strength. Twenty yards is unreasonable for something at a weight of 1xBL, but at a weight of 0.2xBL it's pretty plausible.
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A baseball weighs, roughly, 1/3 of a pound. A baseball player with a ST of 12 (Not an unreasonable ST for a baseball player) could throw that ball . . . 522 yards. Which would be 1,044 mph.

I think there's something wrong with the application of your rule of thumb.
Two problems with your math. First is that real world throwing doesn't take 1 second, a 522 yard throw takes about 10 seconds. Second is that muscle force curves drop off with velocity, so that simple rule of thumb does overstate range.
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Old 05-09-2017, 11:28 AM   #38
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

One interesting thing is the amount of distance achieved with 16lb hammer throws and 16lb shot put throws, both thrown by mighty Olympians, and both weighing 16lbs
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Old 05-09-2017, 11:46 AM   #39
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

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Two problems with your math. First is that real world throwing doesn't take 1 second, a 522 yard throw takes about 10 seconds. Second is that muscle force curves drop off with velocity, so that simple rule of thumb does overstate range.
Actually, the problem is with your "formula" as it doesn't account for time. The van cannot be thrown over more than one second for your formula (distance < 10m). But, your formula doesn't account for that.

Additionally, we're talking about super heroes which go more by comics than by anything else.

With Supers, it is established that they can throw massive objects great distances. GURPS already acknowledges this. If you want to continue discussing throw distance for the real world I would invite you to create your own thread.

Kalzazz, my main problem with using melee damage for throwing is the major disconnect of throwing something heavy, really fast but the impact does hardly any damage compared to the slam potential.

If Pink Light punches someone she does 8d-1 (ignoring melee bonuses for the moment). But, if she slams someone with her move of 150 and her 60 hp, she does a whopping 90d. By my rebuild, she would do (8d, +11 / die, +88 is +25d) 33d in a slam. Which is still a lot, but also a lot more manageable.
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Old 05-09-2017, 11:57 AM   #40
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

That is why I suggested using the same damage for both, if she can throw a van for 28d then let her melee someone with a van for 28d. I have no particular issue with 'throwing damage should hit harder', just I don't want to make throwing always superior to melee

I can understand a manhole cover being much superior as a throwie, it looks like a discus, so by thematic law of course it should work better being thrown

A van doesn't look at all like a throwing weapon, so the idea vans magically throw better than they melee seems highly dubious to me
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