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Old 05-08-2017, 06:52 PM   #21
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

I'm liking my alternate rule as I went in and did the maths for the van slamming at speed 106, and it worked out to 27d-1 (7d-1 +10/die, +70 turns into +20d, 27d-1), which is really close to the ST 178 thrown damage (28d+1).

Okay, yeah, that's an arbitrary value, but, it was something to check against.
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Old 05-08-2017, 07:18 PM   #22
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

So, here's a super-simple rule for throwing with log ST:

Throwing: you can execute a one-handed throw of any object with a weight of less than 1xBL. To determine throw speed and half damage range, look up the object's weight on the BL table and find the appropriate ST. The object's Move and 1/2D Range is (your ST) - (ST to lift the object as 1xBL). Its Maximum range is equal to Move * (1+Move/10). Using two hands or extra time to throw adds to ST (say, +3 for two hands, +1 per turn spent winding up).

Example: a ST 10 man attempts to lob a 5 lb brick. Looking up 5 lb on the BL chart, we find a ST of 4 as required, so the brick has a half damage range of 6 yards and a maximum range of 9.6 yards. A 5 lb homogeneous object has 14 hp, so its damage is (6 x 14) / 100 = 0.84d, or 1d-1. A lighter 2 lb rock would be thrown at move 10 and do (10 x 10)/100 = 1d.

(note: the fact that homogeneous objects do twice as much damage as unliving objects in collisions is a bit nonsensical).
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Old 05-08-2017, 07:30 PM   #23
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

Well, I probably did badly using Thor as an example, but Thor using a Throwing Wagon was a very amusing image

But according to Low Tech Companion 2 a ST 11 throwing axe scaled to SM + 2 for instance provides a ST 27 throwing axe that does Sw+5 damage

The idea that for a ST 35 person a van, which is not at all designed to be a throwing weapon, is a far superior throwing weapon to a purpose built weapon is to me extremely dissonant

Possibly you need some way to make custom throwing weapons that are in the proper ST 35 weight class, so you could have a 5000 lb throwing axe, which by potentially doing cut damage and such is better than a 5000 lb van as a throwing weapon

But you still have it being infinitely superior to throw a weapon than it is to engage in melee with one . . . . . that seems very dissonant to
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Old 05-08-2017, 07:31 PM   #24
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
So, here's a super-simple rule for throwing with log ST:

Throwing: you can execute a one-handed throw of any object with a weight of less than 1xBL. To determine throw speed and half damage range, look up the object's weight on the BL table and find the appropriate ST. The object's Move and 1/2D Range is (your ST) - (ST to lift the object as 1xBL). Its Maximum range is equal to Move * (1+Move/10). Using two hands or extra time to throw adds to ST (say, +3 for two hands, +1 per turn spent winding up).

Example: a ST 10 man attempts to lob a 5 lb brick. Looking up 5 lb on the BL chart, we find a ST of 4 as required, so the brick has a half damage range of 6 yards and a maximum range of 9.6 yards. A 5 lb homogeneous object has 14 hp, so its damage is (6 x 14) / 100 = 0.84d, or 1d-1. A lighter 2 lb rock would be thrown at move 10 and do (10 x 10)/100 = 1d.

(note: the fact that homogeneous objects do twice as much damage as unliving objects in collisions is a bit nonsensical).
Won't doing damage according to the usual collision/Slam rules mean that characters with higher log ST will eventually be doing orders of magnitude more damage with thrown objects than with hand to hand? It would probably be far simpler to keep damage done as Thrust, maybe with per die modifiers for how the object's weight compares to BL and for how hard the object is.

It also seems that even for Move and distance thrown, these will only increase linearly and quadratically, so going from ST 10 to ST 40 would only increase the velocity and 1/2D distance of the brick in the example above from 6 to 36, and the maximum distance thrown from 9.6 to 165.6 yards, even though the force used in the throw is a thousand times as great.
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Old 05-08-2017, 07:40 PM   #25
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

Anthony, that seems really anemic. A ST 10 man can, under the current rules throw a 5lb brick 12 yards. So, again, no thanks. And, Thank you Vitruvian as I couldn't get my brain to build those statements.

Kalzazz, I don't have the Low Tech companions, but I do have Supers.

A 4-yd 12" I-Beam, out of Supers would do Swing+34 damage. That would have a Min LogST of 34. So Pink Light could swing it for 18d+1 damage. That is not a purpose-built weapon, but "random debris."

I'm sure, if there was a 5,000 lb throwing axe, it should do more damage than a van. Coupled with it being more accurate and doing "cutting" damage, yes.

Edit:
Oh, and the I-Beam would weigh 600 lbs, which means she could throw it 122 yards and do 4d-1 damage with it, according to the current rules.

Edit 2:
Under my suggested rules, she would do 31d+1 damage by throwing it.
(I'm at work, so my posting is sporadic.)

Last edited by Mark Skarr; 05-08-2017 at 08:03 PM. Reason: Adendum
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Old 05-08-2017, 08:10 PM   #26
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

What could she do with a 600lb sword or other custom forged melee weapon for her ST? Would it be able to be reasonably competitive with the throwing van?

Supers does make more sense than Low Tech for Supers

A 600lb broadsword in Low Tech companion 2 isn't on the table, but looks like it does a measly Sw+15 cut

Using Low Tech scaling rules, the hypothetical 5000 lb throwing axe does around Sw+70
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Old 05-08-2017, 08:27 PM   #27
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

Since Pink Light's base damage is in the 7d range, and +70 = 20d, using the Low Tech rules scaled 5000lb Throwing Axe she would do around 27d cutting . . . . so . . . extremely similar to the 28d range you came up with for hurling the 5000lb van

That is interesting

Throwing an I-beam for 4d-1 and swinging it for 18d+1 definitely seem out of kilter. Though throwing it for 31d+1 and swinging it for 18d+1 also seems equally out of kilter in the other direction


My basic feelings are that, whatever the rules end up being, they should fulfill

1. A purpose built weapon (a properly over the top supers weapon, such as the hypothetical 5000lb throwing axe) should be preferable to a improvised weapon (such as a van) given the choice
1b - obviously the choice might not be given, theres are millions of 5000 lb vans, but getting a 5000lb throwing axe is potentially non trivial, and you certainly aren't going to find them just parked on the side of the road

2. Throwing something should not be hugely divorced from melee, given properly supers type weapons

So for instance, a X many pound telephone pole should not be superior to a X many pound spear, and a X many pound spear being thrown at someone should have similar ballpark results to the X many pound spear being stabbed at someone
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Old 05-08-2017, 08:39 PM   #28
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

Pink Light's got a Striking ST of 40 which gives an thrust 8d/swing 8d+2.

The only reason the I-beam does so much damage as it's being thrown is that it's able to go really fast, and her base thrust is 8d.

Also, that throwing axe would be doing cutting damage which, at these damage levels, just adds insult to injury.

I'm not a "fan" of the idea, but, how's this for an additional rule.

Damage is modified by the throwing weight rules.

The 600 lb I-Beam is in her Thrust -2/die level, so that combines with the bonus she gets from the Speed/Range table.

And, oops, I was on the wrong line, she can throw it 87 yards, which makes it +9/die instead of +10/die. After the throwing modifier it's +7/die, which, for her thrust of 8d comes out to: 24d for throwing that I-Beam.

Still more than the 18d+1.

ETA: The "new" throwing damage is only 1/3rd more damage than the swing damage, which almost seems fair for giving up your weapon.

I don't think that a purpose-built, super-scale weapon should, necessarily, do more damage, but there should be significant reasons for using one. And their are. Damage modifiers: cutting/impaling. Removed penalties for using improvised weapons. The ability to have a useful thrown weapon skill (though it would be in the spirit of supers to have "Thrown Weapon (I-Beam)").

Last edited by Mark Skarr; 05-08-2017 at 08:53 PM. Reason: Finished some thoughts
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Old 05-08-2017, 08:55 PM   #29
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

I might be rather tempted to just use the same damage for Melee as Throwing (I mean, if you can accelerate it to X in order to throw it, why can't you get it moving that fast when smacking someone with it? So throwing and meleeing should do the same damage)

And make 'Custom made weapon rather than random object' just say +1 per die damage for 'real weapons' for options of comparable sorts (so a Mace is +1 per die compared to a car, a spear +1 per die vs a telephone pole) etc
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Old 05-08-2017, 08:59 PM   #30
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Default Re: Ramming Speed vs Throwing Speed with a side order of Log ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
I might be rather tempted to just use the same damage for Melee as Throwing (I mean, if you can accelerate it to X in order to throw it, why can't you get it moving that fast when smacking someone with it? So throwing and meleeing should do the same damage)
Arguably, because you want to continue controlling the object, so you wouldn't use the full amount of strength available to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
And make 'Custom made weapon rather than random object' just say +1 per die damage for 'real weapons' for options of comparable sorts (so a Mace is +1 per die compared to a car, a spear +1 per die vs a telephone pole) etc
I realized I amended my previous post right before you posted this. But, I don't think they should, necessarily, do more damage, but they should do damage better. Removing the to-hit penalty is a big step in that direction, as is the ability to have types of damage that inflict more injury after armor.
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