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Old 03-04-2017, 06:35 AM   #1
lord buss
 
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Default Limited use and takes recharge

The modifiers are very strange: limited use - 1/day is -40%, when both limited use - 2/day and takes recharge - 1 hour, is -60%. it is cheaper, and you can use this more times. WTF?
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Old 03-04-2017, 07:08 AM   #2
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Default Re: Limited use and takes recharge

There are several modifiers where the cost does not really make sense compared to others. This is specially common with the time limited things compared to each other.

Cost FP, maximum duration, Takes recharge, Limited use, Periodic Recharge do not really have relative values that make sense.

Worst examples are things like comparing maximum duration to limited use or cost FP.

Compare three limitations:
With maximum duration -50% level you can use the power freely for 10 minutes and then not for 5 minutes and then again 10 minutes and so on.
Limited use 1/day at -40% you can use it once/day or 1 minute/day.
With cost FP at -40% level most heroes will be slowed and it takes typically 100 minutes of rest to get back a second use.

So in (almost all cases) the highest limitation value thing is the least limiting.
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Old 03-04-2017, 07:29 AM   #3
lord buss
 
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Default Re: Limited use and takes recharge

So does using takes recharge with limited use for -60% counts as cheatng?
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Old 03-04-2017, 07:51 AM   #4
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Default Re: Limited use and takes recharge

No, because it's more limited than just taking Limited use 2/day.


And Weby is ignoring a few things:

A character that takes a power that has Costs FP, -40% and has Instant Regen (FP Only) is less limited than the "Use for 10 minutes, then Off for 5 minutes", and far, far less limited than the "1/day".

Also with a Character that simply has more than 16 FP and Fit (Or a mage with Recover Energy at 15 or 20, or anyone with Breath Control).

You can't look at Limitations and Enhancements in a vacuum. Everything on a Character sheet is a whole.


And Costs FP is very much overpriced (item 5 on Rev P. Kitty's House Rules).
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Old 03-04-2017, 07:53 AM   #5
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Default Re: Limited use and takes recharge

It's not really cheating, it's just that you're dealing with one of the least stable parts of the system, which means it needs more GM oversight than it would without them.
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Old 03-04-2017, 08:42 AM   #6
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Default Re: Limited use and takes recharge

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
And Weby is ignoring a few things:

A character that takes a power that has Costs FP, -40% and has Instant Regen (FP Only) is less limited than the "Use for 10 minutes, then Off for 5 minutes", and far, far less limited than the "1/day".
If you need a 100/150 point advantage to make a -40% limitation be less limiting than a -50% limitation then my "(almost all cases)" part should really cover that very special case.

And in any case even with that 150 point advantage the 10 minute use 5 minutes off compared to 1 minute use/day is still pretty strange pricing.

Quote:
Also with a Character that simply has more than 16 FP and Fit (Or a mage with Recover Energy at 15 or 20, or anyone with Breath Control).
Anyone with those traits still not be able to use it for anything approaching 2/3 of the time. At best with breath control you can use only 16 minutes to recover the FP needed for 1 minute use, the others are much slower.
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Last edited by weby; 03-04-2017 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 03-04-2017, 08:45 AM   #7
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Default Re: Limited use and takes recharge

Quote:
Originally Posted by lord buss View Post
So does using takes recharge with limited use for -60% counts as cheatng?
Cheating: definitely not as it is RAW(Rules as written). But it is definitely one of those cases where the GM has to think "Does this make sense?" and decide. All enchantments and limitations are more than average in the "require close GM oversight" category when compared to other parts of the system.
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Old 03-04-2017, 08:58 AM   #8
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Default Re: Limited use and takes recharge

I double all the discount values for Limited Use unless you are taking one of the Reload options. Also, I correct the mistake that crept into 4e of counting a "use" as one minute rather than the one hour that 3e provided.

For Costs Fatigue I allow a discount of 15% PLUS 5% for each level.
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Old 03-04-2017, 09:26 AM   #9
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Default Re: Limited use and takes recharge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
I double all the discount values for Limited Use unless you are taking one of the Reload options.
Note this means that, for abilities with few/no Enhancements (or all abilities if using Multiplicative Modifiers), one use per day (-80%) and one use ever (x1/5) give the same discount. Not that I disagree Limited Use should be worth more, but if you allow for one use ever abilities, do you give them a greater discount?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Also, I correct the mistake that crept into 4e of counting a "use" as one minute rather than the one hour that 3e provided.
That makes Limited Use far less limiting. It may be more appropriate to use one of these (double Limitation value vs extend duration), rather than both. I could be wrong, however - Limited Use, 10/day -20%, at 1 hour per use, means it's only available a little less than half of the day, which would be a -20 Accessibility (although in this case, the character has much more of an ability to manipulate circumstance so it's there when he needs it).
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Old 03-04-2017, 09:38 AM   #10
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Default Re: Limited use and takes recharge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Note this means that, for abilities with few/no Enhancements (or all abilities if using Multiplicative Modifiers), one use per day (-80%) and one use ever (x1/5) give the same discount. Not that I disagree Limited Use should be worth more, but if you allow for one use ever abilities, do you give them a greater discount?
Note that by RAW you get the same divisor for costs CP and for one-use ever.

I correct that imbalance and the one you have raised here by giving a /10 divisor for one-use ever.
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