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Old 09-13-2016, 03:41 PM   #41
aesir23
 
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Default Re: Highest strength of TL10 human?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Only he is using extra effort and lifting skill
I accounted for this in my footnote, as you know. And I was very generous: a 50% bonus to Basic Lift requires combined total margin of victory of 10(!) on your Lifting skill roll and your Extra Effort.
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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Also more importantly your talking about dead lifts, the BL lifts in GURPS are overhead lifts
I was referencing page 353, which doesn't specify an overhead lift, only "what you can pick up and lift." I see now where I was mistaken. This does change my view significantly.
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Old 09-13-2016, 03:56 PM   #42
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Default Re: Highest strength of TL10 human?

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Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
I accounted for this in my footnote, as you know. And I was very generous: a 50% bonus to Basic Lift requires combined total margin of victory of 10(!) on your Lifting skill roll and your Extra Effort.
I was referencing page 353, which doesn't specify an overhead lift, only "what you can pick up and lift." I see now where I was mistaken. This does change my view significantly.
I believe the authors have come out more in between both of your views. Gurps lift is over shoulder as in carrying your downed buddy, neither barely off the ground dead lift, nor fully overhead.
Even as a child I could dead lift a bit over 300 lbs; my morbidly obese uncle that did not appreciate me doing that. But my ST stat was not amazing.
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Old 09-14-2016, 02:46 AM   #43
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Default Re: Highest strength of TL10 human?

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Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
I accounted for this in my footnote, as you know. .
Yes sorry you did (I kind of typed that post out of sequence a bit)



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Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
And I was very generous: a 50% bonus to Basic Lift requires combined total margin of victory of 10(!) on your Lifting skill roll and your Extra Effort.
The thing is that's not how Extra effort and lifting works in combination,


In the Extra Effort section:

When using Lifting skill, make a single
Will-based Lifting roll, at -1 per 10%
extra Basic Lift. This is instead of the
usual 5% bonus per point of success

pg357



I.e you don't do both rolls, you do one will based lifting skill roll at a penalty of -1 per +10% increase in BL

so +50% BL would be a -5 test

So say you had Will 12 and a relative lifting skill of +5 which doesn't seem extraordinary when it comes to these chaps (high will seems to be a pretty ubiquitous stat amongst flight athletes in general)

that test would have a 74% chance of success, so not that extreme



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Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
I was referencing page 353, which doesn't specify an overhead lift, only "what you can pick up and lift." I see now where I was mistaken. This does change my view significantly.
Yep it makes quite a difference

Cheers

TD

Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-14-2016 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 09-14-2016, 02:52 AM   #44
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Default Re: Highest strength of TL10 human?

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
I believe the authors have come out more in between both of your views. Gurps lift is over shoulder as in carrying your downed buddy, neither barely off the ground dead lift, nor fully overhead.
...
Have they?

The books seems pretty clear in saying overhead (as per my earlier cite), FWIW I'd peg a shoulder carry/lift (i.e. classic fireman's lift*) as being included as part of:

Carry on Back: 15xBL. Thus, you
can carry more than you can lift by
yourself . . . but every second that your
encumbrance is over 10xBL (that is,
Extra-Heavy encumbrance), you lose
1 FP.
pg 353

You can certainly carry on you shoulder or back weight you can't actually lift up there by yourself with your arms.

This actually means a strictly median ST10 145lb chap as per pg18 height/weight ranges, can fireman's lift his identical twin much more easily for a reasonable amounts of time. 145lb being comfortably under his BLx10 of 200lb, but will have be closer to a BLx8 (160lb) limit for that if we go with the BLx8 calculation. Fireman's lift is designed to quickly move a range of potential people around including those heavier than yourself

That said, yeah I can see a difference potential between "over head" and "fully locking out above you head", but I do think "Over head" is a lot closer to clean and jerk than dead lift (the world record for the latter being approx 2x that of the former)

We touched on this in recent thread (OK recently resurrected thread)

*which you use your body to straighten up under not your arms.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-14-2016 at 06:33 AM.
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Old 09-14-2016, 03:56 PM   #45
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Default Re: Highest strength of TL10 human?

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Legally black people weren't considered human, so I think we can safely ignore that direction as 100% setting dependent.
Biologically is also arguable like pinning down species. Are dogs, wolves, and coyotes different species? How far you differ before you're no longer X animal is not something that can be objectively defined and agreed upon by all.
That's why I'm asking OP and really other posters here too.
Asking what the limits of human are is to also ask what humans are.
My question was directed at how strong a born-human human could be, with TL10 modifications. Even if that meant genemodding-in gorilla DNA in a Trojan-horse-style virus, what matters to me is that it begins with an otherwise unmodified human.
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Old 09-14-2016, 04:36 PM   #46
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Default Re: Highest strength of TL10 human?

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My question was directed at how strong a born-human human could be, with TL10 modifications. Even if that meant genemodding-in gorilla DNA in a Trojan-horse-style virus, what matters to me is that it begins with an otherwise unmodified human.
It's that full no holds barred TL 10 could rebuild EVERYTHING, so it wouldn't matter what you started as or with.
At its crudest, just to prove a point, you could just transplant his brain into whatever you created.
Also there is no real TL 10, only what the particular GM says fits their specific TL 10-ish setting. Look at all the threads arguing over whether some item is plausible, possible, or downright superscience. If we can't all agree on what gets the caret...
It seems like you're trying to munchkin out a max stat character like Gurps was a set of splat books akin to Rifts or D&D.
I don't think that really works.
But if that's what you want...
Most posters would agree that it's theoretically possible for a large human male to have ST 18-20 base with maybe a few points in Lifting Strength. So that's where you can start with genetic hoodoo.
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Old 09-14-2016, 04:45 PM   #47
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Default Re: Highest strength of TL10 human?

I tend to use someone's nice analysis involving mass.
For males, mass to the 1/3 power times 2.6 for maximum Strength. But with mass to the 1/3 power times 0.6 allowed for Lifting Strength added to that.

Of course that's humans, and we're weak for our size compared to other primates. If you specialized someone for strength like said relatives, you could double the real world strength or BL.

That would allow you to multiply instead by 2.6 times square root of 2 for 3.67.
This means that you could make a meat mountain of 400 pounds have ST 27 with Lifting Strength +4.
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Old 09-14-2016, 04:47 PM   #48
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Default Re: Highest strength of TL10 human?

One problem with declaring that realistic human Lifting ST limits are very low because extra effort allows you to match some world records with such a level of strength, is that realistically there are hard limits on how much a certain kind muscles will allow you to lift. Lifting skill and Will are mental traits in GURPS. Eidetic Memory helps prevent degradation of lifting skill and an AI who switches to a new cybershell retains its old Will etc.

Another problem is that setting the limit for strength that low would make it impossible to replicate some feats. Even ST 21 is not enough to replicate this feat (According to the Basic Set, Carry on Back is not affected by the extra effort rules since it is not a lift, which makes sense since lifting skill should not have that much of an impact on an exercise like that).

It seems like it would be a more reasonable approach to decide that the extra effort rules are cinematic (which by the way is no more of a house rule than contradicting what the Basic Set says about realistic ST levels).

Last edited by Andreas; 09-14-2016 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 09-14-2016, 04:55 PM   #49
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Default Re: Highest strength of TL10 human?

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...
It seems like it would be a more reasonable approach to decide that the extra effort rules are cinematic (which by the way is no more of a house rule than contradicting what the Basic Set says about realistic ST levels).
I agree that they are quite cinematic if only to allow the apocryphal little old lady lifting a car to save a child.
But controlled settings with carefully manufactured gear isn't what gaming stats are designed to deal with. It's why Gurps has the +4 to non-combat skill use for the most part.
Gurps also allows these max feats all day as opposed to once then wrecked needing to rest for days.
Realistically, I suppose some increase in stats make sense but only if we employ harsh Last Gasp rules to avoid superhuman repetition of such extremes. Maybe even Ht based Lifting or suffer injury.

I always thought real Lifting skill was mostly how to avoid injury than somehow magically making someone stronger.
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Old 09-14-2016, 05:41 PM   #50
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Default Re: Highest strength of TL10 human?

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My question was directed at how strong a born-human human could be, with TL10 modifications. Even if that meant genemodding-in gorilla DNA in a Trojan-horse-style virus, what matters to me is that it begins with an otherwise unmodified human.
Upload him and put him in control of the largest spacecraft in the setting. Then the limits are purely economic ones.
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