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Old 05-23-2016, 01:32 AM   #41
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

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Originally Posted by Boomerang View Post
How far below average?

I think it is a bad idea for adventurers to have below average strength. For my Vietnam-American War campaign the lowest strength was 11. Any lower than that and you would be heavily encumbered just carrying your standard equipment (where equipment issued is based on historic accounts of what they actually used).
...

Thing is that might well be perfectly realistic (military load outs are heavy, soldiers do complain about them, there is a long and glorious history of official and unofficial attempts to lighten loads when ever possible).

However that said I tend to allow soldiers who have gone though training regimes that involve a lot of marching and drill with full pack, lifting ST. To model their ability to operate with such loads.

(not that I have any issue with some soldiers in the Vietnam war having ST11)!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 05-23-2016 at 03:49 AM.
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Old 05-23-2016, 01:57 AM   #42
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

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I'd like to note that a DX 20 character still has a defense of Nil against attacks from behind, and they'd only have HP 10 to stay alive! Furthermore, a no-armor DX build would find swarms of weak goblins particularly dangerous, since they don't have the DR to deflect their spears and end up taking -2 to flanking attacks! Just a thought for countering that build without being cheesy. :P
My point is not that DX is unbeatable, but that it scales differently than ST, which creates problems. I'd also like to point out that asking for things like DX 50 strikes most people as nonsense, but ST 50 is a perfectly reasonably request, depending on the character type.

DX, IQ and HT are meant to be rolled and center on the bell-curve. ST is not meant to be rolled, and is more about determining where you fall on a scale. ST 1, or fractional ST, or ST 1000, are all sensible stats representing reasonable things (a mouse, an insect, a spaceship). But, I would argue, the cost system doesn't really factor this stuff. You can't price the ST of an insect without breaking the system, and buying a spaceship as a character quickly results in absolutely stupid results (especially if you want something like a spaceship that has 20% more hitpoints than most spaceships, you're paying 2000 points for that privilege, while +20% ability to strike targets is going to be less than 100 points)
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Old 05-23-2016, 04:05 AM   #43
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

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Originally Posted by simply Nathan View Post
Except that strength is your excess power after moving your bulk around.

Are balloons unrealistic?
No but they still have to lift their own weight before lifting any more weight. It just the mechanism they use to lift can be very light (while still being pretty large).

The problem is if you ignore body weight than you have the following situation

A 200lb man with ST10 puts on 100lb ruck sack and suffers heavy encumbrance

but if he puts on 100lb of fat he's fine.

Which is why the text box on pg 19 suggests modelling a realistic adjustment to Move due to ST:Weight ratio by buying/selling Move.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 05-23-2016 at 04:14 AM.
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Old 05-23-2016, 03:21 PM   #44
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

The problem with ST is that high ST is much more useful for smaller characters than larger characters because of tactical utility. An ST 50 SM+4 creature is going to have less tactical utility than an ST 50 SM+0 creature. The former is incapable of entering most buildings without destroying them from the outside while the latter is capable of infiltrating the same building and punching people through the walls.
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Old 05-23-2016, 03:35 PM   #45
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
No but they still have to lift their own weight before lifting any more weight. It just the mechanism they use to lift can be very light (while still being pretty large).

The problem is if you ignore body weight than you have the following situation

A 200lb man with ST10 puts on 100lb ruck sack and suffers heavy encumbrance

but if he puts on 100lb of fat he's fine.

Which is why the text box on pg 19 suggests modelling a realistic adjustment to Move due to ST:Weight ratio by buying/selling Move.
But that's only a vague nod toward realism. 100 lbs of non-muscle is 100 lbs of non-muscle. They all should affect you pretty much the same if we neglect mass distribution and organ packing.
There is no simple answer for Gurps as it stands. All are either kludges with their own realism issues, or added complexities unsuitable for many gamers.
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Old 05-23-2016, 03:37 PM   #46
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

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The problem with ST is that high ST is much more useful for smaller characters than larger characters because of tactical utility. An ST 50 SM+4 creature is going to have less tactical utility than an ST 50 SM+0 creature. The former is incapable of entering most buildings without destroying them from the outside while the latter is capable of infiltrating the same building and punching people through the walls.
I see what your saying, but SM itself counted a zero sum combination of positive and negative effects. Although again what the setting is important here. SM4 is going to be more of negative in a campaign based around courtly intrigue and spying, than in a prehistoric lost world.
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Old 05-23-2016, 03:41 PM   #47
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
The problem with ST is that high ST is much more useful for smaller characters than larger characters because of tactical utility. An ST 50 SM+4 creature is going to have less tactical utility than an ST 50 SM+0 creature. The former is incapable of entering most buildings without destroying them from the outside while the latter is capable of infiltrating the same building and punching people through the walls.
But as that great of strength for something man sized is clearly superhuman and unrealistc, of course it's going to have loads of use beyond what mostly realistic size rules would suggest. I see and kind of agree with your point.

But haven't we all had trouble moving objects that are just slightly too bulky or large to move regardless of actual mass? Many a couch was a hassle for me even though I could easily carry a similarly massed small chair, for example.
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Old 05-23-2016, 03:45 PM   #48
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

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I see what your saying, but SM itself counted a zero sum combination of positive and negative effects. Although again what the setting is important here. SM4 is going to be more of negative in a campaign based around courtly intrigue and spying, than in a prehistoric lost world.
But it would cause issues by making you look tasty to predators that wouldn't waste energy chasing a SM 0 human.
Look at the extinct megalodon. A human wouldn't be a grape, but your guy would be proper food and get eaten.
It's that it's called a zero point feature, but those specifics are assumed but unstated, for the most part. Many optional rules are all over the place in supplements further confusing the issue.
If they were listed we could more easily check them off adding as we go to properly assess SMs (dis)advantageous status for any specific campaign/setting.
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Old 05-23-2016, 03:51 PM   #49
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

People have made collections of the published effects of SM before.
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Old 05-23-2016, 03:52 PM   #50
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

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But that's only a vague nod toward realism. 100 lbs of non-muscle is 100 lbs of non-muscle. They all should affect you pretty much the same if we neglect mass distribution and organ packing.
There is no simple answer for Gurps as it stands. All are either kludges with their own realism issues, or added complexities unsuitable for many gamers.
That's fair enough (and I agree well all have our different tolerances for this stuff) it's just that point you make seems pretty much in line with the text box on pg 19.
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