Fighting Gods

[AlexanderHowl]

I was looking through my Pathfinder books the other day and came to the realization that GURPS, while generally a mechanically superior system, does not deal well with fighting demigod level creatures. For example, Nocticula is a Demon Lord in Pathfinder, and she possesses a +54 attack bonus with her crossbow, which would roughly translate to a skill 64, and an AC 48, which roughly translates to a Dodge of 48. I believe that she would be a 4,000 point character in GURPS, but she is CR 30 in Pathfinder.

In Pathfinder, with a couple of years worth of standard play, a party might be able to becomd powerful enough to threaten a demigod. In GURPS, a couple of years might turn a character from a 500 point character to a 1,000 point character, but they would never be able to scratch a properly designed 4,000 point demigod. I am not saying that one is better than the other, but I believe that GURPS lacks the ability to power climb, for better or worse.

[Toptomcat]

The default character point progression rate of GURPS isn't set in stone. In genres that it makes sense to accelerate it- such as dungeon fantasy- it's entirely appropriate to do so. I believe DF 3 explicitly makes this point.

[mr beer]

I tend not to convert demigod level beings by those kind of formulae, but prefer to instead to have max/superhuman stats and add various powers.

So for example a demigod might have something like ST 30 HT 20 DX 20 IQ 20 and Altered Time Rate, Damage Reduction 3, Enhanced Time Sense, DR 20 (Forcefield), Regeneration: Fast and primary combat skills around 30. They would have other things as well, like spells, mobility (Flight and/or Warp), Terror, very high or very low Appearance etc.

That's if I intend them to be killable by PCs.

But yes if you start GURPS dungeon delvers at 250 CP and advance them at 2 to 4 CP per session, it's going to be tough to challenge 4,000 CP demigods any time soon.

I use GURPS to run D&D games with a vastly superior engine but it's not an emulator without a lot of work. I'd rather not emulate a lot of D&D crunch anyway. If you wanted to more closely mimic the rapid level progression current D&D editions provide, a starting point might be to go with 150 CP characters and hand out something like 25 CP per session, with rules on what that can be spent on.

[Anthony]

Two points:

1. NPCs are rarely built with an eye towards point efficiency, and are certainly not built for point efficiency in a completely different game system. It's quite possible that 500 point GURPS PCs could deal with a 4,000 point villain.
2. Pathfinder is generally designed around greater power escalation than GURPS, but like most versions of D&D, it starts breaking down above about level 10.

[GWJ]

It's because of how gods etc. are created in Pathfinder. You wouldn't call this "properly designed god" if it could be accurately translated on GURPS mechanics.

[AlexanderHowl]

Why would I not optimize a NPC for their point value? I have taken more care designing my NPCs than most of my players have ever taken in designing their PCs. If I design a 4,000 CP NPC, my players will have to bring their A+ game even if they are all playing 2,000 CP PCs. Of course, a 2,000 CP group should have trouble with a 2,500 CP NPC because an extra 500 CP is devastating in GURPS.

[mr beer]

'optimise' how exactly? Running a multi-dimensional religious empire presents different challenges to running a battlefield to struggling against other demigods to crushing PCs. Something that excels at one may be less competent at others.

As to why, well you don't have to adhere to a points budget at GM so you can design as you please. If you choose to stick to budgets in order to maintain a power/level ranking system, of course you can but it's not a requirement for NPC design.

[AlexanderHowl]

While every GM is different, I always keep to point budgets. It just seems fairer to me.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I was looking through my Pathfinder books the other day and came to the realization that GURPS, while generally a mechanically superior system, does not deal well with fighting demigod level creatures. For example, Nocticula is a Demon Lord in Pathfinder, and she possesses a +54 attack bonus with her crossbow, which would roughly translate to a skill 64, and an AC 48, which roughly translates to a Dodge of 48.

Does it? Based on what?

Why would I not optimize a NPC for their point value? I have taken more care designing my NPCs than most of my players have ever taken in designing their PCs. If I design a 4,000 CP NPC, my players will have to bring their A+ game even if they are all playing 2,000 CP PCs. Of course, a 2,000 CP group should have trouble with a 2,500 CP NPC because an extra 500 CP is devastating in GURPS.

Well one reason why you wouldn't optimize an NPC (for combat) is that when that NPC is a "god" then you are probably well advised to invest heavily in some very expensive advantages that have nothing to do with fighting a mortal opponent at knife fight range, something they'll rarely be doing and the outcome of which won't generally matter that much to them anyway. I mean they're immortal, right? Getting stabbed by a mortal may be annoying and embarrassing, but it's not exactly a matter of life and death.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

While every GM is different, I always keep to point budgets. It just seems fairer to me.

But you set those budgets. In what manner is that 'fair'?