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Old 01-22-2018, 07:37 AM   #1
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Scales of maps and play

One of the things I like about TFT is the notion that play can flow from one length/time scale to another with relatively uniform approaches to maps, game turns, etc. I have two questions for the hive mind:

1) What scales do you prefer? The ones presented are 1.33 m/hex with 5 s turns, 4 m/hex with 5 s turns, 20 m/hex with unspecified time scale (at least, I think...) and 12.5 km/hex with 1 day turns. Do you think this is the appropriate set or would you prefer another?

2) Personally, I feel the idea of self-similar rules across different scales should be developed in a more concrete way to encourage/support modes of play besides combat - particularly exploration at the scales of dungeons and challenging overland travel. E.g., I would prefer that the basic structure of the TFT turn (initiative/select from 3 movement options/perform 1 action from a list permitted to your movement option) applied at all scales, and that the time and distance scales allow you to just use your MA as your rate of movement in hexes/turn at every scale. It would take, like 5-10 pages of rules to lay out how this would work at a huge range of scales of play, and would support a lot of different activities that are currently relegated to the usual 'make it up as you go along' fall back plan. What do you make of this idea?
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Old 01-22-2018, 11:26 AM   #2
JLV
 
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Default Re: Scales of maps and play

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
One of the things I like about TFT is the notion that play can flow from one length/time scale to another with relatively uniform approaches to maps, game turns, etc. I have two questions for the hive mind:

1) What scales do you prefer? The ones presented are 1.33 m/hex with 5 s turns, 4 m/hex with 5 s turns, 20 m/hex with unspecified time scale (at least, I think...) and 12.5 km/hex with 1 day turns. Do you think this is the appropriate set or would you prefer another?

2) Personally, I feel the idea of self-similar rules across different scales should be developed in a more concrete way to encourage/support modes of play besides combat - particularly exploration at the scales of dungeons and challenging overland travel. E.g., I would prefer that the basic structure of the TFT turn (initiative/select from 3 movement options/perform 1 action from a list permitted to your movement option) applied at all scales, and that the time and distance scales allow you to just use your MA as your rate of movement in hexes/turn at every scale. It would take, like 5-10 pages of rules to lay out how this would work at a huge range of scales of play, and would support a lot of different activities that are currently relegated to the usual 'make it up as you go along' fall back plan. What do you make of this idea?
Conceptually, I like the idea, but I don't want 10 pages of additional rules to cover something as simple as changes in map scale.

I can see why you would guess that many additional pages, if you want to formalize movement, etc. at each scale with options, etc., at each level of mapping; but is all that formalization really necessary? Really all you need to do is figure out some way to determine which group moves first, whether or not your group becomes lost, and how far they can see. Even Barbarian Prince (which is not the best written set of rules I've ever seen) handled this in only two pages of rules and two pages of charts (one of which is specific to the game booklet contents and would either be radically simplified or shortened if adapted to another, more generic, game), which is pretty short for a core mechanic such as map movement was for BP.
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Old 01-22-2018, 12:44 PM   #3
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Scales of maps and play

This is a matter of taste, of course. One could say everything you wrote about melee combat as well, and there are games that treat combat with the broadest of brush strokes. So, the question is whether or not one likes the idea of treating exploration of dungeons, cities, landscapes, wilderness travel, etc. as a game-within-a-game, much as we do fighting. Personally, I think this is a very good idea because it brings the same immediacy, challenges and player decision making that makes combat fun.
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Old 01-22-2018, 01:34 PM   #4
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: Scales of maps and play

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
This is a matter of taste, of course. One could say everything you wrote about melee combat as well, and there are games that treat combat with the broadest of brush strokes. So, the question is whether or not one likes the idea of treating exploration of dungeons, cities, landscapes, wilderness travel, etc. as a game-within-a-game, much as we do fighting. Personally, I think this is a very good idea because it brings the same immediacy, challenges and player decision making that makes combat fun.
Yes, but Combat was part of the game already, whereas this idea was not.
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Old 01-22-2018, 02:41 PM   #5
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Scales of maps and play

Just to put it all into perspective, the very first version of the very first table top roleplaying game had a larger volume of more detailed support for km-scale wilderness exploration and skirmish or large unit mass combat than it did for small group close combat. D+D assumed you had and used Chainmail as your main combat engine, and suggested you run out and get Outdoor Survival. And one of the earliest new contributions to the hobby was En Garde!, which focused on very organized, structured week time scale campaign play. So, for sure the hobby has come to focus most of its rules for structured play on personal combat, and TFT is mostly in that camp...but not entirely. Even as simple a game as this spent a surprisingly about of its sparse page count on jobs, paying taxes, the difference between play at 1-m and 3-m scales, 20m scale maps, etc. These are really just seeds of a deliberately crafted set of rules for such things, but the idea is there. Of course if you don't like it then don't do it. But I think it is just a better way of playing such games, whatever your core system.
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Old 01-23-2018, 11:41 AM   #6
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Default Re: Scales of maps and play

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Just to put it all into perspective, the very first version of the very first table top roleplaying game had a larger volume of more detailed support for km-scale wilderness exploration and skirmish or large unit mass combat than it did for small group close combat. D+D assumed you had and used Chainmail as your main combat engine, and suggested you run out and get Outdoor Survival.
Which primarily shows that they really didn't focus on either of those topics very well -- since they wanted to use outside systems for the purpose of those (fairly key) functions. It would be like telling a Melee/Wizard player to go buy a copy of Pathfinder for all that "role-playing stuff." (And yes, I started playing D&D with the White Box in 1975, so I remember this well.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
And one of the earliest new contributions to the hobby was En Garde!, which focused on very organized, structured week time scale campaign play.
Though again, as I recall, they didn't spend even ten of their smaller pages on the details of that. You picked one of three or four things to do, and you worried about what regiment you were assigned to and what clubs you could join, and that was about it. It was all primarily a mechanism to force duels on people, as I recall... (My rules went away over a decade ago, so I can't quote specifics anymore.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
So, for sure the hobby has come to focus most of its rules for structured play on personal combat, and TFT is mostly in that camp...but not entirely. Even as simple a game as this spent a surprisingly about of its sparse page count on jobs, paying taxes, the difference between play at 1-m and 3-m scales, 20m scale maps, etc. These are really just seeds of a deliberately crafted set of rules for such things, but the idea is there. Of course if you don't like it then don't do it. But I think it is just a better way of playing such games, whatever your core system.
Mixing apples and oranges there a bit -- jobs is not the same as differing play scales, and mixing the two sets of rules to make your case isn't really fair -- it's like saying D&D had 200 pages of roleplaying rules; yes, yes they did, but only about ten of those pages addressed any single specific issue. I can see a couple of pages of rules on jobs, and a couple of pages of rules on game scales (though of note, "1-m and 3-m scales" are really the same scale). In other words, the length of the rules is probably about right, IMHO, though I can see that a ruthless rewrite would make them clearer and tighter...
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Old 01-23-2018, 12:22 PM   #7
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Scales of maps and play

Like I said, anyone who isn't into this sort of thing should blow it off. But I don't really accept that just because these concepts look a bit half baked from 2018 hindsight that they were bad ideas, or not meant in the way I suggest. En Garde! in particular really wasn't an excuse for playing through tactical duels. It was mostly intended to be a play by mail campaign game focused on your monthly script of 4 campaign actions (1 per week). About half the page count has to do with things that happen on military campaigns, and more space is devoted to investments and bureaucratic job promotions and so forth than to dueling. Yes, it all looks a bit goofy if your reference frame is the modern $40 hard cover rule book. But honestly I think it was a better conceived and more well balanced game than most of the things we not take as industry standard.
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Old 01-23-2018, 08:51 PM   #8
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Default Re: Scales of maps and play

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Like I said, anyone who isn't into this sort of thing should blow it off. But I don't really accept that just because these concepts look a bit half baked from 2018 hindsight that they were bad ideas, or not meant in the way I suggest. En Garde! in particular really wasn't an excuse for playing through tactical duels. It was mostly intended to be a play by mail campaign game focused on your monthly script of 4 campaign actions (1 per week). About half the page count has to do with things that happen on military campaigns, and more space is devoted to investments and bureaucratic job promotions and so forth than to dueling. Yes, it all looks a bit goofy if your reference frame is the modern $40 hard cover rule book. But honestly I think it was a better conceived and more well balanced game than most of the things we not take as industry standard.
Well, you're making quite a few assumptions there, and I'm not sure why your "suggestions" have more validity here than anyone else's, but okay... I'll just say "facts not in evidence" and move on.
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Old 01-25-2018, 09:58 PM   #9
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Default Re: Scales of maps and play

TFT & Scale: Converting TFT to wargaming w/o hexes

[This in no way is meant to remove hexes from traditional TFT. It is meant to open up using TFT to those more familiar with wargaming.]

Background data:
The Fantasy Trip uses hexes to determine movement and combat.
Each Turn is 5 seconds long.
Normal human figures can move 10 hexes in one 5 seconds Turn.
Since I was always getting confused between the melee map and the tunnel maps I have identified them as:

Tactical hex is the standard hex mats that you place a figure on.
Strategic hex is the tunnel maps described on pages x of ITL. A hex in the Strategic Map represents a megahex on the Tactical mat.
Advanced Melee page 4 states that a tactical hex = 1 1/3 meter (real world). [or 4.4 feet]
ITL says a strategic hex = 4 meters (real world) = combat megahex.
MA of 3 is walking speed on the tactical mat.
According to ITL, walking in a Strategic map is 1 strategic hex per turn and character has normal chance of spotting things. An unarmored figure can run at 4 strategic hexes per turn.

- - - - - - - - -
How its done:
Playing a wargame version of TFT consists of using miniatures and removing the hexes from the tabletop. When you do this, some things become a little imprecise.
I like to use 25mm figures for wargaming TFT. So I use the following:

1 tactical hex = 1 inch Therefore it is 1.33 meter/tactical hex or 4.4 feet. I round this up to 5 feet (real world). Therefore each 1 inch represents 5 feet.
This means a 2 hex hallway would be 2” wide or 10 feet wide (real world).
In the real world, a human can walk 264 feet in 1 minute or 22 feet in 5 seconds. This comes to a little over 4 hexes/inches per turn. That works out to what ITL has.
25mm scale works out to 1/64 scale or S gauge Railroad scale. This allows you to use all sorts of miniatures buildings and terrain pieces.
- - - - - - - - -

Ranges:
The thing to think about when converting hexes into inches is that a figure occupies the entire tactical hex for gaming purposes, whereas in wargaming the distance starts right at the edge of the figure base.

I handle it this way: The figure is in conceptual hex. If a micro molotail {that only affects 1 hex} was tossed on an enemy, that virtual hex (or 1” area) would be fire.
So if the Joe is tossing a flask, the first hex away is 1” away which starts at Joe’s base.

A figure in a hex has 6 directions he can go. A wargaming figure has 360 degrees to go. However, you could imagine hexes as being on the table and just use the 6 directions as possible movement.

Megahexes. This is the tricky part. In regular TFT, the figure is in the center of a megahex: 1 hex with 6 hexes around it. If we do the conversion of 1 hex = 1”, then a megahex = 3”. If we consider the figure to be in the center hex when a 1 Megahex molotail goes off, then he is in the center point of a 1.5” diameter circle. An easy way of doing this is to print a megahex with 1” hexes and cut it out. Poke a hole in the center and then put a pin in it. When the character gets hit with a megahex event, just put the pinned megahex paper on top of the figure and everything in its area is affected.

If you play in the 15mm scale, you would use a smaller length, possibly 1/2” or use metric.

Anyway, I’ve played this way for years. Doing battles that involved 30 pieces or more. I did one battle on a 4 foot by 6 foot dirtbox that involved over 100 figures and took 2 full days to complete.
I took photos of it too. Back in the day when we had negative film. All gone now : (
So you can unmount your Warhammer army figures and have mass troop combat in TFT.
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Old 01-26-2018, 11:43 AM   #10
JLV
 
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Default Re: Scales of maps and play

The only comment I'll make is that to most of us old grognards, "wargaming" means pushing cardboard counters around on a hex-gridded map -- meaning that TFT is *already* "wargaming." As examples, War in Europe, Europa, War Between the States, several hundred issues of S&T Magazine (with games), the just finished Kickstarter for Thunder in the East, thousands of other wargames...

What you describe is what most wargamers refer to as "Miniatures."
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