Small Targets

[RVA_Grandpa]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Sure, -4 to attack Rat sized targets and +4 because they're crawling.

I don't know about crawling. They scurry and they are damn fast about it.

[hcobb]

How about Non-halflings suffer the same -3 "horror" DX adjustment as elves when stomping rats barefooted as rats engage bare feet?

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by JLV

I don't know about that...in real life I've seen a rat the size of a typical house cat or small dog. They're pretty scary.

Yes, but that might be a different thing from the ST 1 TFT swarm rat nuisance creature.

I think the DX roll to stomp a rat has in mind a swarm of not-very-evasive rats. The image being if you have a swarm of rats moving at you, five seconds of stomping at them gets you an overall flat DX roll to stomp one. Not a very precise game mechanic, but it serves if you don't care, kind of like several other TFT rules when you start to scrutinize them. If/when unsatisfied, q.v. GURPS.

Seems to me the DX penalties to hit things in TFT tend to me about evasive things more than just small things. I think that there are probably some consistency/accuracy holes in the listed creatures' penalties, in terms of what types of target might warrant a DX penalty or not, which I would put down to both the level of detail/attention given to some creatures, and the sometimes-problematic desire for simplicity.

I think a single rat that was being elusive would get a DX penalty to hit. Certainly a squirrel being elusive would, and some people say squirrels are rats with bushy tails...

[JLV]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Yes, but that might be a different thing from the ST 1 TFT swarm rat nuisance creature.

I think the DX roll to stomp a rat has in mind a swarm of not-very-evasive rats. The image being if you have a swarm of rats moving at you, five seconds of stomping at them gets you an overall flat DX roll to stomp one. Not a very precise game mechanic, but it serves if you don't care, kind of like several other TFT rules when you start to scrutinize them. If/when unsatisfied, q.v. GURPS.

Seems to me the DX penalties to hit things in TFT tend to me about evasive things more than just small things. I think that there are probably some consistency/accuracy holes in the listed creatures' penalties, in terms of what types of target might warrant a DX penalty or not, which I would put down to both the level of detail/attention given to some creatures, and the sometimes-problematic desire for simplicity.

I think a single rat that was being elusive would get a DX penalty to hit. Certainly a squirrel being elusive would, and some people say squirrels are rats with bushy tails...

Well, the one I saw probably wasn't a tenth as strong as me (assuming I'm a typical, non-heroic type with a ST of 10), and it ripped the hell out of a house cat that was trying to drive it out of a shed. And kept the shed... I certainly didn't want to face it mano-a-rato or anything! At least, not without some serious leather gloves and a really big stick.

I'd agree that many of the specific DX issues strike me as more of a "that feels about right" solution, as opposed to an "analysis shows" type of solution. But really, I think that's okay, since TFT is designed to be more cinematic than GURPS is...

On the DX penalty, you're probably right. They're quick, they are unexpectedly devious (compared with many other animals), and they have a finely tuned sense of survival.

[TippetsTX]

Wow, we have really rolled off topic here... can we go back and pretend that I never mentioned rats?
;)

All I'm asking is whether anyone else sees the incongruity of having a bonus for hitting large targets, but no penalty for trying to hit small ones and if so, did they implement any houserules to address the issue.

[hcobb]

First off ST goes by squared, in some places, so something with 1/100th your strength has a tenth your ST rating.

Second small targets do get listed minuses to hit, when they are evasive. I think this understates the impact on missile fire so for objects with the largest dimension less than four feet multiply the range by: four feet / largest dimension.

Ergo shooting at a six inch long rat at two hexes is treated as shooting at a man sized target at 48"/6" x two hexes = 16 hexes = 5 megahexes = -2 DX.

[JLV]

Originally Posted by hcobb

First off ST goes by squared, in some places, so something with 1/100th your strength has a tenth your ST rating.

Second small targets do get listed minuses to hit, when they are evasive. I think this understates the impact on missile fire so for objects with the largest dimension less than four feet multiply the range by: four feet / largest dimension.

Ergo shooting at a six inch long rat at two hexes is treated as shooting at a man sized target at 48"/6" x two hexes = 16 hexes = 5 megahexes = -2 DX.

So it's a "Richter Scale" of ST? Hmm. Show me that in the rules...

[warhorse11h]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Wow, we have really rolled off topic here... can we go back and pretend that I never mentioned rats?
;)

All I'm asking is whether anyone else sees the incongruity of having a bonus for hitting large targets, but no penalty for trying to hit small ones and if so, did they implement any houserules to address the issue.

I think an argument could be made that the wide ranging comments on this topic indicate: 1) Quite a few folk see the incongruity and 2) few have developed house rules as yet.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

All I'm asking is whether anyone else sees the incongruity of having a bonus for hitting large targets, but no penalty for trying to hit small ones and if so, did they implement any houserules to address the issue.

Yes, we saw the issue, but took it on a case by case basis - each small species should probably have a to-hit penalty rating that combines the effects of its size and typical elusiveness, but it seems to me official TFT monster lists seem to consider -1 or -2 penalties too small to list, but should probably exist if one wanted to be more accurate and detailed.

Our TFT house rules along those lines were limited to doing exactly that: assessing the DX penalty to hit each species on a case by case basis, and so it was just a creature feature.

(And then we switched to GURPS, which has developed systems for explicitly representing the effects of size, speed, and dodging ability...)

[Senturian]

I realize this thread isn't about rats, but they were mentioned and brought up a few questions.
how many rats fit in a hex?, how many can or would attack in a 5 second turn?
I can't see it being 50.
Maybe 50 in a megahex, so 7?,
hey, you might actually survive!