Sleeping in Armor

[DanHoward]

I've tried to sleep in several types of armour and read relevant primary sources, which is where the rules in Instant Armor (p. 20) came from. The Holdout modifier is a fair indicator of how easy an armour is to sleep in. Light, flexible armour is not much of a problem. Rigid, bulky armour definitely is. If you want to sleep properly in uncomfortable armour then take the Deep Sleeper Perk.

Here is one relevant account:

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow; their ease in weariness and sweat... Mouldy bread or biscuit, meat cooked or uncooked, water from a pond or a butt, poor sleep with their armour still on their backs, the enemy an arrow-shot off...

-- Gutierre Díaz de Gámez, the Unconquered Knight

[LBurger]

All good points.

About the Deep Sleeper perk: ok, if you get it, great. But what if you don't?

I've never tried to sleep within something that would reseamble a plate/mail, but sleeping with a lot of coats or something like that would be really weird for me, and wake me up in the middle of the night.

Im inclined to say that there is no penalty, or maybe 1 or 2 fatigue points for missed sleep (depending on which kind of armor).

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by LBurger

All good points.

About the Deep Sleeper perk: ok, if you get it, great. But what if you don't?

I've never tried to sleep within something that would reseamble a plate/mail, but sleeping with a lot of coats or something like that would be really weird for me, and wake me up in the middle of the night.

Im inclined to say that there is no penalty, or maybe 1 or 2 fatigue points for missed sleep (depending on which kind of armor).

There already are rules for this - based on real world experience and historical accounts. See Low-Tech Instant Armor, p. 20:

Lighter armor is fine once you’re used to it (this includes PCs who enter play with such armor; adapting in play requires a successful HT roll, one attempt per sleep period). Heavier armor – anything with Holdout -3 or worse – definitely isn’t comfortable. Count only half the hours spent trying to sleep in it as actual sleep; see p. B427 for effects. Moreover, each sleep period spent in heavy armor costs 1 FP which can only be recovered by resting for a full sleep period without armor.

Instant Amor gives a specific Holdout modifier for every type of armour based on its bulk and flexibility. -3 includes heavy mail and light scale but armor such as light brigandine and medium leather are -2 and, as such, are capable of being slept in. It isn't perfect but the rules seem to work better than anything else that was considered.

[sjard]

I know it's not fully accurate armor, but I used to nap regularly in my SCA plate armor, and for a nap, flat on your back for maybe up to an hour, it wasn't too bad.

However, anything more than that, and you'll want to move a bit and that would be a problem. I'd see, in some ways, flexible armor that bunched up, being even worse.

[acrosome]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

There already are rules for this - based on real world experience and historical accounts. See Low-Tech Instant Armor, p. 20:

Lighter armor is fine once you’re used to it (this includes PCs who enter play with such armor; adapting in play requires a successful HT roll, one attempt per sleep period). Heavier armor – anything with Holdout -3 or worse – definitely isn’t comfortable. Count only half the hours spent trying to sleep in it as actual sleep; see p. B427 for effects. Moreover, each sleep period spent in heavy armor costs 1 FP which can only be recovered by resting for a full sleep period without armor.

Instant Amor gives a specific Holdout modifier for every type of armour based on its bulk and flexibility. -3 includes heavy mail and light scale but armor such as light brigandine and medium leather are -2 and, as such, are capable of being slept in. It isn't perfect but the rules seem to work better than anything else that was considered.

But by those rules mittens are hard to sleep in. They are Holdout -3. (Same source p.15.) So some judgment is still needed on the part of the GM.

P.S.- I have definitley slept in my IOTV; you need a lot of "pillow" to prop your head higher because of the back plate or you need to sleep semi-recumbent. But then, I probably have Deep Sleeper...

[Flyndaran]

I agree with that mittens sentiment for games, but I'm pretty sure I would have a tough time sleeping with constricted fingers.
I need to splay my hands to sleep.

[DanHoward]

The question isn't "can I sleep in armour?" The question is "can I sleep in armour comfortably enough to not affect my performance the next day?" If someone is stupid enough to wear mittens without the rest of their armour just so they can argue that they shouldn't get a penalty the next day then go ahead.

[acrosome]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

The question isn't "can I sleep in armour?" The question is "can I sleep in armour comfortably enough to not affect my performance the next day?" If someone is stupid enough to wear mittens without the rest of their armour just so they can argue that they shouldn't get a penalty the next day then go ahead.

I'm sort of an "extreme backpacker." I sleep in a sleeping bag, fully clothed, including mittens all the time.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by acrosome

I'm sort of an "extreme backpacker." I sleep in a sleeping bag, fully clothed, including mittens all the time.

None of stuff that is rigid and in fact most of it is designed for warmth and comfort. In fact don't forget that it's most likely TL8 Stuff designed to be used in that way. It's the rigidity that will effect natural unconsciousness movement that will in turn effect sleep patterns, that will in turn effect sleep quality.

I think the rules in Low tech are fine, so long as you keep that in mind (and don't worry about fringe stuff like big penalties for big hold out penalties that stem from the specifics of the how the item are normally used that might make them harder to hold out than would otherwise be the case). I.e Mittens are hold out -3 because they are really obvious when you wear them not because they are intrinsically rigid massive objects that will effect sleep.

FWIW I've slept in mail for a couple of days straight, and for me it's specific effects faded into the general camping discomfort (I hate camping ;-))

[TallIan]

There are a number of issues:

For a night or two, depending on the rigidity and TL, you could get forced into a position that will get uncomfortable. This will cause you to wake up with anything from dead limb/pins and needles to a pinched nerve.

In all but perfect weather you will have issues with hot/cold. Its quite difficult to regulate your body temperature, with rigid armour on, soft armour will be better at keeping you warm in the cold. Falling asleep while hot is difficult and waking up cold makes it really hard to move initially, you'll be very sluggish.

Someone mentioned that sleeping in rigid armour on stony ground could be more comfortable, which might be true, but sleeping in rigid armour is a bit like sleeping on stony ground anyway.

Those will lead to a bad night's sleep, so a small FP penalty the next day makes sense. With an increasing penalty for longer periods.

For longer periods, hygiene, especially odor and skin conditions could become a problem.

Tall