[Basic] Advantage of the Week: Animal / human / Plant / Spirit Empathy, Empath Talent

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

That Sex Appeal (as well as Diplomacy, Fast-Talk, Savoir-Faire, and Streetwise*) works on animals if you have Animal Empathy is how the trait is supposed to work:

[...]

That these same skills work as completely different skills on animals is from here:

[...]

And, no, I still don't like it.

*According to Social Engineering p. 31 Intimidation works without Animal Empathy.

OK. Thank you for the references.

When I "speak" to animals, I really have the feeling that I use skills like Diplomacy or Leadership with them.

But I really do agree with you about Sex Appeal - despite of what wrote PK. Sex Appeal may be "the skill of using sexual innuendo, promises, and flirtation to obtain what you want.", when you use it, it is supposed to be with you and not with someone else...

Likewise, Fast-talk cannot work (at least with me). Since animals don't really understand what I say but only my emotional state (what I want), lying is just impossible. I can try to convince animals that what I ask them to do is better for them rather than ordering it directly, but I have to be convinced that it is true. When I have any doubt, it doesn't work at all.

So, you may be right... this advantage is quite strange.

Having said that, it is just my opinion and how it works with me... Others (horse whisperers for instance) may see things differently.

[Flyndaran]

Telepathy doesn't exist, so even non-human animals can only read your actions and body language.
Deception is common among all complex life, and we can use it for their own good just as we can deceive other people for their own good.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Telepathy doesn't exist, so even non-human animals can only read your actions and body language.
Deception is common among all complex life, and we can use it for their own good just as we can deceive other people for their own good.

Yes. But Fast-talk is rarely used for the good of the victim.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

This brings up an issue I have with all of the xxx Empathy traits, being the way they work differently from Empathy. If you want to use Empathy in the name of the trait, then there should be mechanical sameness, IMO. If you want the xxx versions to work as enablers for using Influence skills, then call them something else :|

There is a mechanical sameness. All four of the Empathy traits:

• Give an IQ roll to know what the target is feeling (or it's general health for plants), whether it is possessed and so on.
• Override Indomitable.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Telepathy doesn't exist, so even non-human animals can only read your actions and body language.

I don't think Animal Empathy exists either, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to make Beastmaster or Crocodile Dundee. The trait as written doesn't really do that, IMO.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Yes. But Fast-talk is rarely used for the good of the victim.

Talking a jumper off a ledge is always use of fast talk as mere words aren't going to have any effect on the reasons they had for stepping out on that ledge in the first place.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

..
I don't think Animal Empathy exists either, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to make Beastmaster or Crocodile Dundee. The trait as written doesn't really do that, IMO.

Depends on how you define empathy. As written, it's psychic. But in reality, most social animals have a kind of specialized intelligence for reading others that almost seems psychic to me as a near autistic person.
I have that for some animals, so it should count as something more than just ignored.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I have that for some animals, so it should count as something more than just ignored.

The reaction bonus and boost to Animal Handling from Animal Friend.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The reaction bonus and boost to Animal Handling from Animal Friend.

Assuming I understand where you're coming form with regards to this sentence fragment...
The main benefit to Animal empathy in my opinion is the supernatural detection, and the ability to use normal skills on them.

Animal handling alone is very brute force and of limited use even when compared to real world human non-human interactions.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Assuming I understand where you're coming form with regards to this sentence fragment...

Realistic people don't have Animal Empathy. Beastmaster has Animal Empathy (or should if Animal Empathy did what it should). Temple Grandin has Animal Friend.

The main benefit to Animal empathy in my opinion is the supernatural detection,

Is not the ability to detect the supernatural itself supernatural?

and the ability to use normal skills on them.

Use normal skills in abnormal ways, though and it forces you make a character that is great at manipulating people as well. This also isn't very realistic. How does training as a confidence man, diplomat, or Lothario give you the ability to communicate meaningfully to animals? How does knowing how to get along with criminals and buy illegal things do it? How does knowing which fork to eat the third course with and how to address the duke do it? Or when to salute a car, or how report for orders?

Animal handling alone is very brute force and of limited use even when compared to real world human non-human interactions.

I don't think that's right.

Originally Posted by Social Engineering p. 31

Animal behavior can be influenced stimuli such as gestures or offers of food. This requires an Animal Handling roll; it is not an Influence skill and no Quick Contest is involved.

Food and gestures are "brute force"?

Also, Animal Friend gives you a reaction bonus, so they'll probably just like you anyway.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Talking a jumper off a ledge is always use of fast talk as mere words aren't going to have any effect on the reasons they had for stepping out on that ledge in the first place.

Yes... Which is why I wrote "Fast-talk is rarely used for the good of the victim." and not "Fast-talk is never used for the good of the victim."

Most often, you use Fast-Talk to deceive people.