Cheat! (CLTNT) and a Curse!

[kyleewing]

So after a long long debate that resolved in just skipping the combat and moving to the next player we are still left with some questions on ruling. It's a little complicated getting to the situation so bear with me, an confusion I can clear up I will be happy to do, if we get an answer...

So the other player enters combat, fighting a level 10 monster, me and another player add enhancers so that the person in combat can no longer defeat it. The player in combat then plays "Cheat Like There's No Tomorrow" allowing them to use three of their items that they would not normally be able to use. I then play "Curse! Thrown Into the Arena!" this card says that the victim may not get any combat bonuses other than Hand items. (One of the items that he had turned sideways was a "Big Hand" item)

First, the argument of using an item versus getting the combat bonus. I understand that the CLTNT card allows you to use any item that would not usually be in play due to Class, Race, Hands, or anything else. I then take the Curse! TITA card as okay you can use it but you cannot get the items combat bonus. Is there a distinct difference between using an item card and getting the combat bonus?

Second, I began to read the first couple threads of the forum, yes the ones that are READ THIS FIRST and all that other non-sense. I came across the Cheat! card section and read through it at least 2.6 times. So if an item is Big it is still Big, and if it is a Hand item it is still a Hand item. The Cheat! card only ignores that cards' limitations, therefore my Curse! card would then still affect everything as it normally would (not being able to get any combat bonuses from cards other than Hand items) except he could still get the bonus from the other Hand card that is not currently being used via the Cheat! card. Is this also correct?

And lastly in a very simple usage, does he get to use the card for the combat bonus, or would he technically be able to use the items he has and NOT get the combat bonus?

This argument lasted at least an hour and a half and resulted in practically nothing happening and just moving on. So any clarification would be helpful. I've only been playing Munchkin for about 3 weeks but our group has hours of play time into it and constantly learn new things through the forums. So thanks everyone!

[Atlus]

TITA is one of the meanest curses in the game overall and I"ll try my best to answer everything.
1. CLTNT makes you use the item so you weren't able to before so it would count as you carrying them all in the combat. So if he had 3 items that were armors for example he is wearing them all for this combat. Which gives him the bonus. (if that makes sense)
2. Cheat! does make it so cards normally not usable on you usable but the parameter on the card is still there. If they weren't then a lot of curses that target specific pieces on you like armor or headgear would be less useful because they wouldn't target the Cheat!(ed) one. So TITA does put a huge damper on a person even if they do use CLTNT or anything to the same effect (Cheat!, Cheat with two hands, etc).
3. I'm not quite sure what you are asking, I'm sorry but could you elaborate more on that?

[StormCrow42]

The whole argument has actually started on a false premise.

The rules state that you can't play items while in combat, or alter what items you're using. Even if you're allowed to play CWBH (or any other cheat card) during combat, that won't change what items you're using in that specific combat (they're still only carried, not used).

In any event, it's been repeatedly ruled that while Cheat removes the need to satisfy the requirements to use an item (free hands, head, whatever), the card still counts as that kind of item when it comes to curses, monster effects, etc.

[Andrew Hackard]

Originally Posted by StormCrow42

The rules state that you can't play items while in combat, or alter what items you're using. Even if you're allowed to play CWBH (or any other cheat card) during combat, that won't change what items you're using in that specific combat (they're still only carried, not used).

Except for Cheat Like There's No Tomorrow, which lets you use anything and everything you have in play, at the cost of discarding all Items you can't legally use when the fight is over. (Insert usual "please read cards before commenting" note here.)

To the original question: the Curse cancels all bonuses from non-Hand Items. Given that CLTNT was played before the Curse, any Items he declared he was using before Thrown Into The Arena was played were still in use, just granting no combat bonus, and he would have to discard the illegal ones once the fight was over. Nasty! However, if you wanted to be kind and let him walk back the non-Hand items that were no longer giving him a bonus, that would be fine as well.

[MunchkinMan]

I'm using my moderator's privilege and sharing a key portion of the card's text:

"For one combat only, you may use any and all Items you possess, regardless of Hands, Race or Class restrictions, or anything else."

Andrew: I was about to say that I interpret it such that the Curse counts as "anything else."

[Andrew Hackard]

Originally Posted by MunchkinMan

Andrew: I was about to say that I interpret it such that the Curse counts as "anything else."

Then we need to take this upstairs for a ruling -- which means I'm closing the thread temporarily.

[Andrew Hackard]

Word from Steve:

I'd say: the Cheat operates to let them use all those items, and the Curse denies them non-Hand combat bonuses as stated on the card.

[kyleewing]

Thanks! That clears things up a lot.
I didn't mean to break Munchkin or the forums. Thanks Steve! I feel honored.

But just a clarification is using an item the same as a combat bonus?

[Andrew Hackard]

A combat bonus is anything that gives you a + in combat.