New Reality Seeds

[YankeeGamer]

I had a thought for a result I'd like to see, but have no idea how to get it.
How could we have Weimar Berlin either remain a (your choice of adjectives--liberal, progressive and free, or Decadent den of inequity and licentiousness) into the later pert of the 20th century?

[jason taylor]

Neutral cities were often a haven for someone running away from political trouble in the thirties. At one time Trotsky took shelter in Istanbul. Of course the Whites were settled their making new lives (or not). Stalin was near enough to be interested.

What is surprising is that either of these parties did not attempt to assassinate Trotsky. What if they did?

This does not have to be an Alt Reality unless one posits a successful assassination. It can be.

The PC's can be an investigative team from the local police.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Apollonian

Hm. I think you can do something with Americapox and a different Columbian exchange, but I have to ponder it a bit more.

Orson Scott Card wrote a book called "Pastwatch" with an alternate that fits the description. It involves the new world being discovered via Brazil, and that lets meso-americans build up an immunity to the disease. When the atzec successor state shows up in europe their diseases break down society and they conquer it.



I haven't read the book, but seed feels a touch weak. The closest thing to an "ameripox" is syphilis, and that has some marked disadvantages compared to smallpox.

[Apollonian]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Orson Scott Card wrote a book called "Pastwatch" with an alternate that fits the description. It involves the new world being discovered via Brazil, and that lets Meso-Americans build up an immunity to the disease. When the Aztec successor state shows up in Europe their diseases break down society and they conquer it.

I haven't read the book, but seed feels a touch weak. The closest thing to an "ameripox" is syphilis, and that has some marked disadvantages compared to smallpox.

Yeah, it definitely requires something different... I was leaning toward a medium-incubation fast-acting contagious leprosy type thing that leaves a fair number of horribly disfigured and possibly mentally damaged survivors, to which (for some reason) most sub-Saharan Africans are immune or resistant. It wouldn't have the death toll of the New World pandemics, but it would shatter society nearly as hard.

For first contact, have a couple of native Americans carrying the disease picked up by fishermen/explorers on the Grand Banks of Newfoundland in the early 1400s and brought back to Europe as curiosities. The americapox starts spreading from their point of arrival - let's say, England, and then through the Netherlands and the trading networks therefrom - and starts manifesting. Columbus and the other early Iberian explorers make their voyages on schedule and start the New World pandemics, but there's no real followup once americapox starts really digging its claws into Southern Europe.

So that's the European population edge and state formation sorted; however, the New World still has a technological and domesticated animal handicap. To solve that, I think colonists are the best bet - probably free-thinking refugees from the Old World and the terrible scourge of americapox. (Maybe disfigured but competent americapox survivors chased out by terrified rabble, or exiled-with-support by the Crown.) Have 'em colonize Cuba sometime in the early- to mid-16th century with domestic animals that the locals and such can adopt and then let diffusion, trade, and intermarriage with Mexico and up the Mississippi do its stuff.

This world's 20th century is probably lagging in a lot of ways, technologically; I imagine it's pretty steampunk in look. Figure the Industrial Revolution just kicked off around 1930 or so on the Great Lakes, so TL5 for the civilized world by 2000. It's pretty space batty, mostly in the americapox itself, but it'd be a fun stop over for IW agents. If it is in IW reach, they've probably quarantined it until they find a vaccine/treatment for americapox.

(If you're willing to cheat with magic, of course, americapox is actually malevolent spirits that Old World traditions can't counteract, and then you get a pretty decent fantasy steampunk setup, if a bit cliched - old world technology vs new world magic in a lot of ways.)

[Astromancer]

Try this one...

When Pugechev's Rebellion broke out the scale of the revolt took everyone by surprise. But poor logistics and the simple fact the rebels never seem to have even thought to get outside help doomed the revolt. However, in this Q6 world the Prussians, seeing a chance to limit and weaken Russia, a state that had come so close to crushing them only a few years ago, choose to both aid the rebels and attack on their own.

It was a close thing, but "Peter III" was crowned Tsar of all the Russias in 1775. However, Catherine maintained control of about 30% of Russia. Pugachev only held about 35% of Russia. Although the European powers expanded East, Sweden even seems to have begun a return to great power status, most of the rest of the territory is simply not under control, the various tribes and peasant communities simply ignoring the outside world.

It's now the year 1790, America is independent, France is in revolt, and Prussia is a rising power. Centrum wants to put Russia back together so that Russia, Prussia, France, and Austria, keep each other busy and allow Britain the rule of the seas. They also want Russia to deliver Napoleon his defeat. Homeline France is profoundly hostile to this. Homeline doesn't want Centrum to own Russia in any world. Also, Homeline agents have learned that the Cabal was behind Prussia's actions. Why did they do it?

Basically, these are wild EAST adventures. Most of the tropes of Westerns work very well in Russia. Although there are swasher elements of this setting that don't fit Westerns and there are plenty of occult and or mythic elements in Russian lore that can spice up the campaign.

[Luke Bunyip]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

... Most of the tropes of Westerns work very well in Russia. Although there are swasher elements of this setting that don't fit Westerns and there are plenty of occult and or mythic elements in Russian lore that can spice up the campaign.

Oh, my... that's rather tasty sounding.

[Astromancer]

Try this one...

The Japanese in the 17th century chose isolation, but they still allowed some contact and had limited awareness of the outside world. The realization of vast "empty" lands up for grabs could have inspired some independent exploration. In this Q7 world, the Japanese did send out explorers and settlers. By the early 19th century, stable colonies have been established in Alaska, New Zealand, the Pacific Northwest, and Kamchatka. Meanwhile, Europe is beginning to expand into the Pacific. Conflict is coming.

Basically, post-Napoleonic swashbuckling in the Pacific. Rapiers versus katanas from New Zealand to Alaska.

[Astromancer]

Try this one...

In our history, Russia sternly and forcefully prevented the development of railroads in Iran. Basically they didn't want the Iranians to modernize economically as it might prevent Russia from absorbing Iran. Russia was blocked in their drive to incorporate the Ottoman and Iranian states into their empire, but they derailed the economic development of the Middle East.

However, in this Q6 parallel Russia through greater efforts into directly invading India (something often spoken of but never really acted on in our history) and also had serious problems in Siberia, mainly self-inflicted problems. As a consequence, British moves to build railroads in the Middle East (meant to bring profits to Britain, but still useful to the locals) met less resistance in Iran. Although Iran didn't achieve the same level of transformation as Japan, still the Iranians achieved the same type of transformation.

The Ottoman state, always torn on the subject of railroads, was forced by the transformation of their old rival Iran to allow, even court Britain, into building railroads from the Dardanelles to Basra. These were soon connected to the European and Iranian railroads. Soon there was a Paris to Calcutta express!

The economic transformations required an expansion of education and communication, both of which furthered the transformations.

Basically, it is 1899 and the Ottoman and Iranian states are being courted by Britain, Germany, France, and Russia. It's espionage in a steampunk/Arabian Nights setting.

Note: This is a low manna world. Exotic energy beings (the locals call them Fay, Elves, Djinni, Nagas, Dragons, Kami, or whatever the mythology suggests) visit this world. The Cabal is fascinated by these beings Homeline is both interested in the beings themselves and what the Cabal wants with them.

Further, magic is known in this parallel and excepted as something real. There is an awareness that magic was easier to learn once and stronger. Homeline, Centrum, and the Cabal are fascinated with this world's occult history and believe that the best evidence for finding out what happened is in this world's Middle East.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

In our history, Russia sternly and forcefully prevented the development of railroads in Iran. Basically they didn't want the Iranians to modernize economically as it might prevent Russia from absorbing Iran. Russia was blocked in their drive to incorporate the Ottoman and Iranian states into their empire, but they derailed the economic development of the Middle East.

However, in this Q6 parallel Russia through greater efforts into directly invading India (something often spoken of but never really acted on in our history)

How were they going to invade India? They need to go through Afghanistan, and the problem with doing that is that it's terrible country for logistics, and the natives are masters of guerrilla warfare. Going through the Himalayas is not viable.

A more practical strategy, although it's too subtle for the Tsars, would be to encourage railways in Iran, making sure they're Russian gauge. With a bit of luck, you can get the British to help pay for them. When things are ready, take over Iran, which gives you warm-water ports, and a solid logistic base to the west of Afghanistan. Then you start building roads through Afghanistan, having bribed local leaders, and while the British are working against that, invade via what's now the Iran-Pakistan border.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by johndallman

How were they going to invade India? They need to go through Afghanistan, and the problem with doing that is that it's a terrible country for logistics, and the natives are masters of guerrilla warfare. Going through the Himalayas is not viable.

Now you know why the Russians tended to merely talk about invading India rather than actually doing much. Still, Russian leaders from at least Paul I up to Stalin openly spoke of wanting to do this. Putin is supposed to speak of the idea from time to time.

A more practical strategy, although it's too subtle for the Tsars, would be to encourage railways in Iran, making sure they're Russian gauge. With a bit of luck, you can get the British to help pay for them. When things are ready, take over Iran, which gives you warm-water ports, and a solid logistic base to the west of Afghanistan. Then you start building roads through Afghanistan, having bribed local leaders, and while the British are working against that, invade via what's now the Iran-Pakistan border.

It sounds like a lively alternate history you should write up. However, the Tsars didn't lack subtlety, they lacked a sense of proportion. Plans were either madly hyper-sutle or hyper-crude. Inbetween wasn't an option, or so it seems.