Turns to cast spell clarification

[Acala]

Hello, i'm certain that this question might have been asked before, i read some of the answers but i'm still confused about the RAW in this case.

The RAW says you take the concentrate manouver for 1 turn and at the end of it, the spell goes off. That means that if i try to cast, lets say, a regular 1 second spell like Panic, it goes off in the same turn.

Now, in the case of a fireball spell, i need another turn to throw it because it needs an attack manouver to conclude the spell, so it takes 2 turns.

In conclusion, unless otherwise noted, regular spells do go off in the same turn, but missile and others which require another manouver to conclude demand more turns to complete. Am i reading this right?

I'm confused because a lot of the answers i've read seems to claim that all spells take one turn to start casting and only in the next one everything happens, with the noted exception of blocking spells (which are clear enough rules-wise).

If that's the case, there is no way in the standard magic system to cast fireballs like Skyrim right? It would have to be Magic as powers, or something like that?

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Acala

Now, in the case of a fireball spell, i need another turn to throw it because it needs an attack manouver to conclude the spell, so it takes 2 turns.

In conclusion, unless otherwise noted, regular spells do go off in the same turn, but missile and others which require another manouver to conclude demand more turns to complete. Am i reading this right?

Not quite. Casting Fireball and Throwing the fireball are two different actions; in fact they require two different combat maneuvers (Concentrate to cast; Attack to throw it).

On the turn in which you are finished casting the fireball you roll to see if you successfully cast it, at which point you are "holding" a fireball in your hands. On subsequent turns you may Aim, Attack, Wait, or even choose to dispel the fireball instead of throwing it.

Note also that Missile spells can be cast in 1-3 seconds; you can choose to make a larger missile by casting multiple turns in a row; on the final turn you are growing the missile you roll for success with the spell. You must then Attack or take other actions on subsequent turns.

Originally Posted by Acala

I'm confused because a lot of the answers i've read seems to claim that all spells take one turn to start casting and only in the next one everything happens, with the noted exception of blocking spells (which are clear enough rules-wise).

The rules for 3rd Edition used to work that way. The rules for 4th Edition clearly say the spell takes effect on the final turn you are casting it. If a spell takes 1 second to cast it takes effect on the turn you declare you're casting it. If a spell takes 5 seconds to cast you declare you're casting it and take Concentrate on turn 1, continue to Concentrate for turn 2-4. Then on turn 5 take Concentrate again, but also get to roll the dice and, if successfully cast, the spell takes effect immediately during your 5th turn.

The problem is that for some spells "takes effect" doesn't mean "does something immediately." For Missile spells "takes effect" means that the mage is "holding" a missile in their hands, but they are unable to attack with the missile until their next turn. The Missile Spell is essentially a spell that allows them to "Conjure Magic Missile" into their hands.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

Casting Fireball and Throwing the fireball are two different actions; in fact they require two different combat maneuvers (Concentrate to cast; Attack to throw it).

Just to follow up with another detail -- throwing Missile spells is one of the things the Innate Attack skill is for. So throwing a Missile that you happen to have is not only a second turn, taking a second Maneuver; throwing the Missile also uses a different skill than creating it. An artillery mage might even need several specializations of Innate Attack to throw a variety of different Missile spells.

The FAQ has a brief item on the change in spell resolution time.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

On subsequent turns you may Aim, Attack, Wait, or even choose to dispel the fireball instead of throwing it.

Or even just wander around with a missile in their hand ready to throw (or drop at their feet if they get stunned or knocked out).

[Anders]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Or even just wander around with a missile in their hand ready to throw (or drop at their feet if they get stunned or knocked out).

Can you bash someone with your missile-in-hand?

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Anders

Can you bash someone with your missile-in-hand?

Missile spells are by definition ranged attacks, with no melee stats. So I'd just resolve that as a ranged attack at zero range. There's no Bulk rating for your hand/arm AFAIK, so you'd be free to use it in close combat at no penalty.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Anders

Can you bash someone with your missile-in-hand?

Probably not RAW, but I’d allow a held missile spell to hit any foe within range of a punch (reach C for most characters) with a successful roll against DX or an unarmed striking/grappling skill. A Perk* should probably let you do it with an actual punch or grab (so you manage to both burn them with a fireball and either bash them with your fist or grapple them with your hand).

*I’d allow this to be per unarmed skill - so you can use Judo to grapple someone and affect them with whatever missile spell you have in hand, be that fireball or stone missile or whatever - or per spell - so you can use any unarmed skill, be that Brawling or Judo or whatever, and affect them with the fireball spell you have in hand.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Acala

If that's the case, there is no way in the standard magic system to cast fireballs like Skyrim right? It would have to be Magic as powers, or something like that?

Not necessarily, there are a couple ways to get a "one fireball per second" using the standard casting system. Two that come to mind.

1) get "Compartmentalized Mind" from B43, this adds 1 Concentrate/second to your normal maneuver, which you can select as "Attack" to throw the fireball.

2) negotiate with your GM the cost (perhaps a perk if it only applied to one spell) of ignoring standard rules, to ignore the complete prohibition against buying "Reduced Time" via T39's "Trading Energy for Enhancements", which you could then use to cast Fireball as a free action, and then can choose your maneuver as an Attack to throw it, not needing to do a Concentrate. You can't take Reduced Time on attack advantages, but I don't think Missile/Melee spells qualify since the casting isn't an attack in and of itself, instead it preps you to attack.

- - -

for highly skilled mages with access to "Meta" spells from GURPS Magic:

If you get the perk from Thaumatology: Magical Styles which lets you cast spells while maintaining a missile spell, you could cast "Maintain Spell" to avoid the -3 penalty for keeping it active. Since these can be kept active indefinitely for free, you just pay 1 energy per 5 full duration periods, and since the duration period is indefinite, that's just 1 energy to keep the fireball active forever.

Then you just cast "Suspend Spell" to stop the fireball from actually appearing/burning/being droppable" and then pay 1 energy to cancel Suspend Spell (I think cancelling is a free action, and there is also a perk to avoid the 1 energy cancellation cost) to make the fireball appear when needed. This requires prepping your fireballs ahead of time, but also costs much less energy during the fight.